Winter 2008-09 Update

  

Welcome to the MacGregor DNA update for winter 2008-9. The project now has over 370 members and the list of names associated with the project is large, containing a significant number of the sept names and aliases associated with the clan. The results, grouped according to significant names or groups of related names, can be found at www.familytreedna.com/public/macgregor.

In previous updates, I have used drawing programs to illustrate ways in which the results can be interpreted in relation to each other, but there are now so many results that these diagrams become exceedingly difficult to read and I have therefore broken the results down into smaller units. Consequently, I am going to concentrate first on some broad conclusions which we might tentatively draw from the results. Then, I will consider how the different subgroups relate to each other. Finally, I will focus on particular subgroups and give some indication of what seems to be the relationship of individual members to one another.

From the results page (see link above), the largest group of MacGregors belong to what I have termed the Ian Cam group. This refers to Ian Cam MacGregor (Cam means blind in one eye), the first recorded MacGregor in the historical record. His death in 1390 is recorded in the ‘Chronicle of Fortingall.’ He is the earliest known ancestor of the current Chief and of many MacGregors who share his DNA signature.

This does not mean that all MacGregors have the same genetic signature; over time, mutations occur as a result of ‘mistakes’ in the copying of DNA from father to son. It has been speculated that the chance of mutation is increased according to environment, age of the father, and/or location of the child in the sequence of offspring. But none of these factors has been definitely proved. It is said mutations have no significant effect on the individual, but they do allow researchers to speculate, for example, on groupings of families. Also, all people named MacGregor or Black or Grier are not related to each other within the period covered by surnames. Surnames, even MacGregor, are adopted by individuals for many different reasons (e.g. inheritance, protection, illegitimacy, etc.).

General Conclusions

In this project there are three predominant groups which are designated under the labels R1a, R1b, and I. These are known as haplogroups. For the most part these are quite distinct. They are thought to have originated in different parts of Europe where people concentrated during the last Ice Age and as the ice melted they subsequently pushed northwards from where they had been located (see map 1).


Map 1 - Haplogroup Migration (click to enlarge)

Haplogroup R1a, as shown above, is assumed to have originated in the Caucuses, going northwards first then later westwards to enter Britain and Ireland, probably through Anglo Saxon or Viking incursions.

Haplogroup I is predicted to have originated in the Balkans and it is dominant as a haplogroup in Scandinavia and Denmark.

Haplogroup R1b followed the Atlantic Coast (and hence the designation Atlantic Modal Haplotype) and eventually spread out to be the dominant group in the whole of western Europe. According to Stephen Oppenheimer in The Tribes of Britain, there were two main emigrations and, in essence, these conform broadly to the haplogroup who retained the DNA marker score of 11 on allele DYS391 on the one hand, and the haplogroup who have a mutated position 10 at the same point, on the other.

How do we know which haplogroup is which from the DNA results? The answer to this, and scientists may wish to stop reading at this point, is that they can be predicted on the basis of previously known results. Scientists would assert that you can’t be absolutely sure unless you test the sample through the relevant processes. However, it seems logical to expect that those who share the same basic DNA profile would belong to the same haplogroup. It’s only at the edges of haplogroups that the results become ‘fuzzy.’

Specific Haplogroups

We’ll look first at the Viking I haplogroup as this, not surprisingly, has rather fewer members than the R1b haplogroup. It is not unlikely that the members of this haplogroup have ancestors who settled on the western coast or islands of Scotland or, where there is known Irish ancestry, probably from those Vikings who settled in the east coast of Ireland.

I have taken results for 25 (see Chart 1), 37 (see Chart 2), and 67 ‘markers’ (see Chart 3) for this haplogroup and the charts are given below. Since progressively less members of the project have had the 37 and 67 marker tests done, the number of individuals in the charts decreases. I have laid out the charts in the same orientation for each set of markers. The numbers refer to the kit number of the participant. Precise details for each kit number are found at the Family Tree DNA web site.


Chart 1 - Viking 1: 25 Markers (click to enlarge)


Chart 2 - Viking 1: 37 Markers (click to enlarge)


Chart 3 - Viking 1: 67 Markers (click to enlarge)

In all cases it is quite clear that there are two separate groups. One way of interpreting this is that they belong to separate invasion groups, a) Norwegian/Swedish based and b) Denmark/Frisian based. The Viking names include Grier/Greer, a MacGregor alias but, there is also a group of Grier/Greer in the R1b group so this might indicate either separate origins or, the intrusion of a Viking male line into the Grier line where the child has retained the mother’s surname.

The second haplogroup, R1a, is almost exclusively borne by the main Orr family in the project. As I have written before, almost all the Orrs in the project appear to descend from the same individual, possibly originating in Ireland (at least from the time of the Viking invasions). Only one other individual (named Westran) is in this group. The 67 marker results for these will be seen in the next diagram.

The haplogroup R1b is by far the largest in the MacGregor project. There are three distinct sub groups within it.

• Those who have a DNA signature with 11 at DYS 391 and conform to the ‘Atlantic Modal Haplotype’
• Those who have a DNA signature with 11 at DYS391 and are almost certainly indigenous to Ireland. This group includes Irish McGregors/Grier/Grierson (you may see this DNA sequence referred to as the ‘Irish Modal Haplotype’)
• Those who have a DNA signature with 10 at DYS391This group includes the main line MacGregor

The chart below shows the R1a and R1b groups in relation to each other (note the single Gregory result (E1b) is included, showing that this one is an isolate and has a completely different origin). MacGregor refers to the principal MacGregor DNA profile (see Chart 4). This chart is based on 67 marker results.


Chart 4 - Relation of R1a and R1b Groups (click to enlarge)

To show this in more simplified form, I have taken one individual from each sub-group who is as near to the modal result (effectively the average) as I can find, and plotted them on a chart (see Chart 5).


Chart 5 - Simplified Relation of R1b Groups (click to enlarge)

Kit 2124 is the line of the Chiefs of Clan Gregor and this chart gives some idea of the distances in genetic time involved. On the left is the main MacGregor line compared with a representative of the DYS391=10 group. On the right the Irish group compared with a representative of the DYS=11 Atlantic Modal Haplotype group. The larger time distances could be as much as 10,000 years. Genetically these groups are very distinct.

We’ll look at each of these in turn, beginning with the Irish sub-group based on 37 marker results (Chart 6).


Chart 6 - Irish Sub-group (click to enlarge)

What this shows is that all the Irish R1b examples come from the same ancestor in the distant past but that in more recent times the Grier/Greer/Griersons appear to have a common ancestry, as do the McAdams with the interesting possible inclusion of a White. It is hard to explain why some branches of this tree seem to have mutated more than others – except that DNA mutations are essentially random.

Next, we move to the group who have a marker score of 11 at DYS391. Most of these will be descended from the original group of post Ice Age settlers (Oppenheimer’s first group) although, because DNA mutations are random, it is possible that one or two of this group originally had DYS391=10 and this DNA marker has mutated to DYS391=11 over the course of ten thousand years. There is no way to verify this. These results are based on 37 marker results (see Chart 7).

Chart 7 - DYS391=11 Marker (click to enlarge)

The time distances here are too long to suggest that many of these people are related within the time frame of surnames (from about 1300 on) except for Greggs 6979 and 130191 (and possibly Gardner as well), McAdams 8857 and 54141, McAdams 83205, and McAdam 82874 (from a different ancestor than the first group of McAdams) and McGregors 137093, 29834, 84081, 126138, and possibly McAdams 12683. The McGregors at least appear to share a common (not main line MacGregor) ancestor in Rosshire or thereabouts (these may originally have been calling themselves ‘Gregor’ and not MacGregor).

Chart 8 presents all those who have DYS391=10 and, as above, one or two of these could have had a more recent mutation from DYS391=11, but there is no way of identifying them.


Chart 8 - DYS391=10 Marker (click to enlarge)

Again, most of the individuals in this chart are not related to each other within the timeframe of surnames with the following probable exceptions: McGregors 7183, 2726, and 27811 whom I have previously speculated were Gregors in the vicinity of Perth. If 28296 is indeed part of this group, as the program suggests, then the connection is very old – and is probably heavily influenced in the programs’ calculations by the occurrence of a marker score of 12 at DYS460. Kits 121543 and 130108 are related and there is the possibility of a Gow related to these which may give a clue to where to look for this group – almost certainly in Perthshire. For Greig 9690 and Grigor 131056 there is a possibility that these represent a very early ancestor in the northern counties of Scotland (Aberdeenshire or Banffshire). Gregory 36006 looks as though it belongs to this group but, according to the genealogy notes, this line goes back to 1390 in Leicestershire so even though there are some similarities in the DNA results, a connection seems unlikely. Presumably increasing the DNA markers out to 67 would separate these out more. The Turks 21757 and 11655 are closely related, as are the Magruders 61472 and 46179, the Greers 35624, 10589, and 68070, and the MeGehee/Mackgahye/McGhies 19870, 74970, 51942, and Mackgehee 121911.

Finally we come to the main branch of MacGregors. The following chart, which is for 37 marker results, also includes some results which are ambiguous but suggest some kind of relationship to the main MacGregor group. This is particularly true of the Stirling results 13635, 16710, and 13678 (Stirling sub-group 1). These are not the same as the group which includes 13621, 38027, 58653, 9290, and 99443 (Stirling sub-group 2) who are known/assumed to descend from a MacGregor and who took the alias Stirling at the time of proscription of the name or soon after. Stirling 28834 has the distinctive mutation of 16 at marker DYS576, but has two more mutations which have caused the program to reallocate his position in the chart. It is difficult to explain why this one line acquired other mutations other than by random processes, unless the connection is earlier in time than expected. The sub-group 1 of Stirlings seems to be a much earlier split, possibly dating to the early Middle Ages (see Chart 9).


Chart 9 - MacGregor, 37 Markers (click to enlarge)

Chart 10 is the same but without the ambiguous results.

Please note in the following charts 99999_MacF should read 120820_MacF(arland)

 


Chart 10 - MacGregor, 37 Markers without ambiguous results (click to enlarge)

In general, close branching suggests possible family links, though it has to be remembered that the programs used calculate on the basis of numerical similarities NOT of known relationships. For this reason it is a good idea to increase the number of markers to 67 so that the random mutations might be less significant between related groups of families. The star-like cluster of these results is entirely what would be expected from DNA results derived from a common ancestor and because Chart 10 is for the MacGregor bloodline, only the length of the lines is relative; no matter what the length of the line in Chart 10, the descent is from the common ancestor Ian Cam MacGregor or the eponymous Gregor who may have been Ian Cam’s father if the genealogies are correct. Once other results are included, as in Chart 4 above, the relative length of these lines diminishes.

Chart 11 is the chart of current 67 results for the MacGregor main group.


Chart 11 - MacGregor, 67 Markers (click to enlarge)

On the basis of this chart, it is suggested that individuals might wish to compare genealogies if they occupy the same branches as others. While family connections are not guaranteed there is a much greater likelihood of these existing where such branch connections are suggested.

Finally, for those who are interested in the internal relationship between groups, Chart 12 gives the 67 marker results for all those who have DYS391=10.


Chart 12 - DYS391=10, 67 Markers (click to enlarge)

Members of the project who have not yet submitted genealogies or who need to update their genealogies, can contact me at richardmcgregor1 AT yahoo.co.uk (substituting the usual sign for the word ‘at’).

Professor Richard McGregor
MacGregor DNA Project Administrator
Chairman of the Clan Gregor Society
December 2008

Where are we now? Update #8

Interpreting the results in relation to the current state of knowledge.

This is the MacGregor DNA Project update for January 2007 to January 2008. The January 2007 update is still the most comprehensive survey and summary of the various groupings in the project. New entrants to the project have their results pulled very quickly, where relevant, into the appropriate family grouping displayed at the website www.familytreedna.com/public/MacGregor.

I suggest that the best way to read this update is to print it out into hard copy and also download the charts separately into your documents folder and then open them using a program which you use for viewing pictures. This will enable you to blow them up larger and make reading the numbers and labels much easier.

Please send in your family information

What would be helpful at this stage would be for the Project Administrator to receive more information from more recent participants regarding their earliest known male ancestor and his family/location because this information is beginning to help identify geographical localities where related families were living.

By way of example, it would be possible to point out the, by now well-known, instance of the Irish group of results which appear to have some connection with the Irish kingly line of Niall of the 9 Hostages, and to which some McGregors, Griersons and Griers (as well as others) belong. Also, I have previously referred to a group of McGregors who seem to have changed their name from Gregor but who, for the most part, have connections with the area round Perth itself, rather than with the main MacGregor line. During the past year a similar grouping has emerged based round Rosshire where, incidentally, the surname Gregor or Grigor is found in relatively high proportions.

Groupings of MacGregors and related names

This update then concentrates on presenting various groupings of MacGregors and related names using both 37 markers and 67 markers. Unlike previous updates I have chosen not to include the Excel files of results because the Family Tree DNA site mentioned earlier is easily viewable, and the Excel grid from that site is downloadable to one’s own computer. Also I am now drawing the trees in a program called ‘Splitstree’, which once mastered, proves to be highly flexible for this kind of work.

A word of caution though; these trees should not be thought of as traditional family trees as such. What they measure is relative distance in time to the Most Recent Common Ancestor and this is expressed in the charts as the ‘modal’. However, because we are here talking about everyone being descended from an individual at some point in the past you will also find that a number of trees are given with ‘root’. This root may be less than a thousand years before the present for some groups but for other groups – like the collection of 67 marker results which is shown for the R1b haplogroup – the root individual will be several thousand years BP (Before Present) – even as long ago as the last Ice Age, 12,000 years or more ago. It is important to recognise this, and each chart is preceded by an explanation which hopefully clarifies it. The initial processing was done using the facility provided online by Dean McGee with the ‘Phylip’ option selected and then the resulting file processed by the Splitstree program. (See D.H. Huson and D. Bryant, ‘Application of Phylogenetic Networks in Evolutionary Studies’, Molecular Biology and Evolution, 23(2):254-267, 2006).

As an example to begin with, I present the collection of individuals surnamed Orr who have tested up to 37 markers [see chart 1]. With two exceptions (not included here) who are from haplogroup R1b, everyone in the Orr group is from haplogroup R1a, a haplogroup that emerged pre-Ice Age in, or about, the Caucuses in the furthest reaches of what is now Europe. Current thinking is that its spread was upwards and westwards for the most part and the haplogroup is now found in many areas including Britain and Ireland.

What we see in this chart is that everyone descends from one individual – and there is one person whose DNA has not mutated very much from the ‘modal’ (kit 100854) – the assumed DNA sequence of the founder. It would be interesting to know if this individual knows anything of his patrilinear descent. In the MacGregor bloodline group the main line from which the Chiefs descend IS the ‘modal’ line (that is, the presumed signature of the founder) and this may have happened, possibly, because of primogeniture (first child of first child, and so on).


Chart 1 - Surname Orr: 37 Markers (click to enlarge)

The second group to consider is that associated with the Irish DNA signature, widely believed to have some connection with the line of the Kings of Ireland – Niall of the 9 Hostages (circa 379 CE). What is interesting here is how the program groups individuals by distance suggesting that they may indeed share a common ancestor pre-surname adoption. This tree is based on 67 markers [see chart 2].

Chart 2 - Irish: 67 markers (click to enlarge)
It may be that this alternative form of tree [see chart 3] is easier to interpret – as long as it is remembered that it is not meant to suggest a family tree as such.


Chart 3 - Connection Tree

Clearly what is very interesting here is the fact that the Griersons and the Griers are obviously grouped together. Also potentially revealing is the connection between McGregor and McGreer and McGregor and Gregg.

I come now to the main MacGregor line (67 markers) – what we have termed the bloodline, though, as suggested earlier it may be the biggest group of MacGregors but, apparently not the only one [see chart 4]!

Chart 4 - Main MacGregor Line: 67 Markers (click to enlarge)

What is suggested by this is a potentially fruitful line of enquiry which may lead to the recognition of family groupings – see the known example of the Stirlings. One correction might be made here – kit 2909 and 2124 suggest separate lines but they could indeed from the same family grouping with some, very limited, mutation having taken place in 2909’s case.

The tree below gives all the 37 marker results currently available for those in the MacGregor bloodline [see chart 5]. Mark MacDonald, of The Clan Donald DNA Project, has suggested that the main MacGregor line (and other clans, too) is descended from Colla Uais (circa 323 CE), one of the High Kings of Ireland who brought his men over from Ulster during the Dark Ages to occupy Dalriada . If he is right, then this could explain the motto ‘Royal is my Race’ (rather than, or as well as, descent from Kenneth MacAlpine). It is important to note that the Irish McGregor descent from Niall of the 9 Hostages, another Irish High King, is NOT the same as Colla Uais descent. These two Irish-based Kings lines only share a common ancestor at the time of the Ice Age (see Stephen Oppenheimer’s [2006] The Origins of the British - A Genetic Detective Story, Constable and Robinson, London ISBN 1- 84529-158-1, published in the U.S. by Carroll and Graf, New York). However, it does mean that whether the MacGregor descent is from Colla Uais or from Niall of the 9 Hostages, both groups of MacGregors can claim ‘Royal is my Race’!

Chart 5 - Main MacGregor Line: 37 Markers (click to enlarge)

What this particular tree shows, when examined carefully, is that there are 3 distinct splits or perhaps better, points from where groups branch off. Towards the top of the picture is one group, and includes Bain N3589 and kit10897, and the lowest group includes 1774 which is believed to be the Glengyle branch of MacGregor. As more results come in it will be interesting to see whether these group collections are maintained. At this point it would be hard to assign any particular significance to the groupings since they are based, it will be recalled, on distance from common ancestor, although similarity of DNA marker score does determine which groups are connected.

The next tree [see chart 6] contains all the DNA 67 marker results for the haplogroup R1b excluding bloodline MacGregors, but including 2124 the MacGregor bloodline, for purposes of comparison. As can be seen there are many branches. Of note is the split which includes the MacGregor bloodline (2124) as it groups with McWhannell and McKinlay and seems to be connected in some way to the Greig line of kit 9690.

Chart 6 - Haplogroup R1b: 67 Markers (click to enlarge)

Just to complete this short survey, I have abstracted all the Viking-related I haplogroup lines which have 37 marker results and the chart [CHART 7] shows very obviously that there are two groups of results here, possibly suggesting an older settlement of I haplogroup peoples or different invading groups (such as Norwegian and Danish). It would be instructive to find out if the individuals in these two groups are to be found in discrete geographical locations in Britain and Ireland. I have kept the box round the Greer at the bottom of the chart because its location is quite difficult to see otherwise.


Chart 7 - Viking: 37 Markers (click to enlarge)

Finally, here is the equivalent tree, in two forms [see charts 8 and 9], for ALL the R1b results which are NOT from the Irish group descending from Niall of the 9 Hostages. The simplest way of seeing this tree is to click on the image for a full sized view. Alternatively, you can save it to your computer and open it with a graphics program that allows you to magnify the image. By this means you will be able to see the complexity of the groupings which are to be found in R1b even jut within the results for the MacGregor project. This demonstrates the incredible expansion this group experienced as it colonised the British Isles and, in fact, almost the whole of Western Europe after the Ice Age.

Chart 8 - R1b Tree Excluding Irish 1 (click to enlarge)

Group members can locate their numbers from the kit number just before the abbreviated name.

Chart 9 - R1b Tree Excluding Irish 2 (click to enlarge)

Any further clarifications or genealogical information can be sent to the project administrator, Richard McGregor, using e-mail at richardmcgregor1 AT yahoo.co.uk (substitute the word AT for the @ symbol).

Richard McGregor

January 2008

Texts on DNA Genetics

If you are interested in reading more about DNA, here is a list of articles and books currently available. I have added comments to help give an indication of the level of understanding required.

Articles on the Web

There are a large number of articles freely downloadable on the web, far too many to list here. For general information try the ROOTSWEB site, DNA section (use Google or your favorite search engine to search on Rootsweb DNA, or try Roper’s DNA site (search on Roper DNA) or Kevin Duerinck’s site (search on Duerinck DNA). To see if there’s any projects on names in which you are interested simply search for SURNAME [the surname you are interested in] DNA.

If you feel ready to try some of the more scientific papers, let’s say for Y chromosome, do a search for “Y chromosome DNA pdf”. To narrow your search for Y chromosome to a particular group, add that word to your search – for example “Celtic” or “Gaelic” or “Viking” (though you might get more with “Norwegian” and/or “Icelandic”). The articles you will find using this search will be in .pdf format and you will need the free Adobe Acrobat reader on your computer (many have it pre-installed but, in any case, it is freely downloadable).

Most of these articles are actual scientific papers therefore, expect technical jargon. However, the discussion sections are usually quite accessible. For a list of interesting articles relevant to DNA, have a look at www.familytreeDNA.com – there is a page on the site with useful articles.

Books

Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Genes, Peoples and Language, London, Penguin Books 2000/2001 [like it says – quite general, maybe a bit repetitive]

Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, Alberto Piazza, The History and Geography of Human Genes, Princeton, Princeton University Press, 1994 [NB the abridged version is 411 pages long – technical and not for the faint hearted – cost about £25 paperback]

M.A. Jobling, M.E. Hurles, C. Tyler-Smith, Human Evolutionary Genetics, Abingdon: Garland Science, 2004 [an undergraduate textbook but excellent on detail, if you can cope with the science]

Martin Jones, The Molecule Hunt, London, Penguin Books 2001/2002 [excellent introduction to all things DNA]

Steve Jones, Y: The Descent of Men, London: Abacus 2002 (the same author has written Genetics for Beginners, The Language of the Genes, In the Blood, Almost like a Whale, as well as co-authoring several others) [Robin McKie in The Observer described this book as ‘…a delicious romp through the biology of the human male’!]

Steve Olsen, Mapping Human History, London, Bloomsbury 2002 [covers the same ground as Oppenheimer]

Stephen Oppenheimer, Out of Eden (The Peopling of the World), London, Constable 2003 (NB the same book has a different title in America) [Y chromosome and MtDNA: a very thorough and well presented survey but not one to start with]

Stephen Oppenheimer, The Origins of the British, London: Constable 2006

Chris Pomery, DNA and Family History, Richmond, Surrey: The National Archives, 2004 [a good starting point for learning about genealogy and DNA]

Colin Renfrew and Katie Boyle, Archaeogenetics: DNA and the population prehistory of Europe, McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, University of Cambridge 2000 (distributed by Oxbow Books, Oxford). [Variety of technical and non technical articles covering many European peoples as well as DNA aspects of plants and animals] [NB £40+]

Julian Richards, Blood of the Vikings, London, Hodder and Stoughton 2001/2002 [Y chromosome of the Vikings – but buy the paperback]

John H. Relethford, Reflections of Our Past, New York, Oxford: Westview Press 2003 [includes some discussion of other methods of analysis e.g. blood and has a section on Ireland]

Alan Savin, DNA for Family Historians, Alan Savin 2000, http://savin.org [The first author to tackle the subject of Genealogy by DNA]

Megan Smolenyak and Ann Turner, Trace Your Roots with DNA, Rodale 2004 [the authors are very experienced in the whole area and write well]

Alan Stewart, Tracing Scottish Ancestry on the Internet, Chichester: St Richard’s Press 2004 [includes a section on DNA]

Bryan Sykes (editor), The Human Inheritance, Oxford, Oxford University Press 1999 [series of articles on archaeology, language and DNA of ancient origins]

Bryan Sykes, The Seven Daughters of Eve, London, Bantam Press 2001 [MtDNA]

Bryan Sykes, Adam’s Curse, London, Bantam Press 2003 [General discussion of Y chromosome]

Bryan Sykes, Blood of the Isles, London, Bantam Press 2006 [British Y chromosome]

Spencer Wells, The Journey of Man, London, Penguin Books 2002 [Y chromosome]

Videos

If you have the Discovery Channel, watch for repeats of "The Real Eve" (for mitochondrial DNA) and "The Journey of Man" for the Y chromosome.

Where are we now? Update #7

Interpreting the results in relation to the current state of knowledge.

(We apologise for the delay in issuing this update while we waited for a number of 67 marker results to come back from the Lab.)

During the past year, the Clan Gregor Project admitted its 200th member – a fine achievement for what is a relatively small clan. Now with 225 active participants, which makes us one of the largest clan groups, we have had a good number of citations in various journals.

What Characterises the Clan Gregor Project?

1. We have tried to encourage adoption of the 37 marker test for identifying closer family relationships where this would be significant. As a result, we have an impressive array of results with benefits for both participants and larger scale studies trying to help sort out the ‘history and geography’ of genetic movement.


2. We have encouraged some members to go further and have up to 67 markers tested. This has included what we believe to be the main MacGregor line and is beginning to help clarify the various sub families or ‘houses’ which form the MacGregor genealogy back into the Medieval period.


3. Some of the MacGregors have undertaken SNP testing (of which more later) in an attempt to locate the likely geographical origins of the clan group (e.g. indigenous Scottish or Dalriadic Scots).

What have we found?

In brief...

1. The MacGregors have predominantly one ancestor (the eponymous Gregor), but there is also a small unrelated Irish group includes Grierson and Grier, and who, it is believed, originate in the Irish kingly line of "Niall of the 9 Hostages."
   
2. The aliases of Bain and Stirling were indeed originally MacGregor in certain families, and that the names have persisted to this day instead of MacGregor. Also, that at least one Campbell family is MacGregor, one Pressly, and one McNab.


3. Some of the aliases – such as Grierson, Gregor, and Grier, have arisen. independently from MacGregor and in many cases the connection with the clan is by association not by blood.


4. There are a number of MacGregors/McGregors whose ancestors adopted the name, through, no doubt having lived in the proximity of blood-related kin. However, some of these may be the result of non-paternity events which have had the effect of changing the DNA profile.


5. There is a deeper ancestral connection which cannot really yet be satisfactorily explained – this group includes Magruder, Grieg, some Stirlings, some Gregorys, and possibly some McGehees. The connection here seems to be pre-surname adoption, but to lie within the period of the ‘Dark Ages’ during which clan affiliations were developing.

Why does DNA tell us this?

It has to be understood that when a male is DNA tested for genealogical purposes, the test is applied only to the Y chromosome. The Y chromosome is what makes males male. A father passes on the Y chromosome to his son and the son to his son – and so on. Anyone who descends from the same father will have the same Y chromosome. So if 400 years ago a man had 4 sons, each of those sons would receive the Y chromosome of their father and then those four sons would pass that same Y chromosome on to their (let’s say) 4 sons and then those 4 to their 4. This is assuming that 4 sons have 4 sons each (just for the sake of argument) although we know that families rarely work in such an orderly way, and also that, especially in earlier times, children did not all survive.

In this theoretical family there are:
Within a century, in this model, there would be 86 males all having the same Y chromosome DNA – except for small ‘copying’ errors which happen from time to time – these ‘copying’ errors being known as mutations. All these children should carry the same surname, unless they have been forced to adopt another surname as an alias, as happened to the MacGregors.

Women do not receive the Y chromosome and therefore, have to find a male with the surname MacGregor or one of the related names to do the DNA test on their behalf.

Women DO have DNA which can be tested. This is Mitochondrial DNA (MtDNA) which they got from their mother and which they passed on to all their children (including males) but males are unable to pass it on.

The update prior to this one explains what is revealed for each of the surnames found in the project, so it will not be repeated here. However, since then a number of individuals have had their DNA tested for 30 more markers. Most people in the group have had 25 or 37 markers tested but there are individuals who have had 67 markers tested, so a comment is needed about what has been found. The actual number scores can be found on the “Y Results” tab at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MacGregor.

Chart 1 shows the current level of results. Most of the results belong to the R1b haplogroup – the haplogroup associated with the repopulation of Europe after the ice age (see Oppenheimer 2006), and the most common of haplogroups in northern Europe – as is reflected in the Clan Gregor Project. The two other groups often found are firstly Haplogroup I which is generally interpreted as Viking (only two 67 results so far – McWhannell and Greer – but the group is well represented in the Clan Gregor project being easily distinguished by the markers scores 8,9,8 on the 14, 15th and 16th markers). Secondly, we find R1a which originated in the Caucuses, but in the Clan Gregor project only the Orrs have so far fallen into that group.


Chart 1 - R1b Haplogroup (click to enlarge)

Although all the participants in the R1b group are ultimately related (i.e. thousands of years ago in some cases), only those contained within the group which circles round 2124 MacGregor (probably including 12436 and 28296 but possibly not 46397 McWhannell) come, we believe from ‘Gregor.’ The DNA profiles, and thus the chart, suggest that those who have tested for 67 markers belong broadly to the same family group of MacGregors, though because of their mutations, separation of the family units may date from the time of the proscription, and possibly not earlier in some cases. Although the Gregorys in this chart are all related to each other, they are only distantly related to the MacGregors, almost certainly NOT in the period of surnames (that from the 14th century) but not too distantly; which throws up an interesting possibility of a more ancient origin for the ‘Gregor’ name. Gregor means "shepherd" and could literally be a "shepherd of sheep," but also, in the Biblical sense, "a shepherd" (as in Pope Gregory). The McGehees belong to a similar outlying group, not related from the 14th century, but closer in time that all the others shown in the upper part of the chart. Again, notice the aliases – there is clearly a MacGregor who became a McNab and one who became a Stirling.

With the small number of 67 results, we are not showing members of the same family group as we do for the Gregorys. We would have expected more grouping round 2125, if, as believed, this is a Roro branch. It is likely that these groupings will develop as more 67 results are inputted. All the members of the R1b group at the top of the chart are unrelated to each other in the shorter time frame of surnames. We only have one 67 result for Orr – which is in haplogroup R1a – if this group all did 67 we would expect them to group together in a star shape like the main MacGregors showing family relatedness. The two members of the Viking group I are actually probably related to each other within a shorter time frame – possibly dating from 2000-1500 years ago.

We are hoping that scientific estimates on 67 markers will eventually enable us to be somewhat more specific as to date of separation but this refinement is not currently available since it requires a large group of 67 results allied to known genealogies to make the time estimate more reliable. We would expect to have more information on that in due course from FtDNA.

Chart 2 is not generated by the Clan Gregor Project, but is the current version of the R1b portion of the world haplogroups chart.

We have worked with a company called Ethnoancestry to see if it might be possible to identify, more exactly, the geographical origin of the Clan Gregor DNA line working with SNPs (short tandem repeats).

I am grateful to Bonnie Shrack for clarification of the difference between haplotype and haplogroup – and the significance of SNPs in the research. I include part of her e-mail to me on the subject to help understanding:

...There are two completely different things, defining haplogroups, and describing haplotypes. The haplotypes are made up of different series of Short Tandem Repeats, listed by the DYS number of the site where the repeat occurs – as seen in, for example, your test scores from FtDNA. But they never, ever, have defined haplogroups.

What happens is that scientists try to correlate the various haplotypes with haplogroups: we, all of us, are trying to figure out what haplogroup a particular haplotype probably belongs in. But having a certain haplotype can never guarantee a certain haplogroup. There are only correlations and probabilities.

[Since Bonnie wrote this to me, several companies now are able to confirm haplogroup, including FtDNA who show a confirmed haplogroup in green on their results chart.]

That's because Short Tandem Repeats, useful as they are for short-term genealogy, are not at all the thing to define a haplogroup, which is used instead for long-term questions: the migrations of ancient populations in human prehistory, thousands of years ago. So they are defined by something else – Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs), and other similar kinds of mutations, all of which come into the category of Unique Event Polymorphisms (UEPs). These kinds of mutations are very rare, and we presume that once they have happened, they are never reversed.

At the moment, it has only been possible to confirm M269 on the chart for MacGregor – any mutation ‘downstream’ of that which ‘characterises’ MacGregors has not yet been found. However, the group which includes some Irish McGregors and others – those who are said to descent form Niall of the 9 Hostages – have been identified as lying in the subgroup M222, which is believed to be indigenous Irish, dating from the time when Ireland was first colonised, after the retreat of the ice (see Oppenheimer 2006).


Chart 2 - World Haplogroups Chart: R1b (click to enlarge)

If you are interested in further information, please go to http://www.familytreedna.com/ where there is a great deal of information about DNA and Genealogy. Instant updates – allied in many cases to information about the earliest ancestor of the participant will be found at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MacGregor where there is also a map of the earliest known ancestor for most participants. Please wait for this to load as there is rather a lot of information because the Clan Gregor project is so big.

The summary of the Clan Gregor Project, given the update previous to this one, still represents an accurate picture of what we know for each of the family groups identified.

Where are we now? Update #6

Background to the Update

This update has been done as the number of participants in the Clan Gregor DNA Project approaches 150. We have benefited form a change in Family Tree DNA’s group structuring arrangements whereby some members of the separate Gregory, Grier, and Stirling Projects have decided to have their results also shown on the Clan Gregor Project pages. We welcome these individuals and some of their earliest ancestry statements will appear in this report and in due course.

As a result of the larger numbers involved in the project now, I have decided to try to make sense of the various groupings which seem to be developing, and to, at least confront some of the anomalies which seem to be emerging.

This update uses the arrangement of results presented in Table 1 below. It is suggested that the easiest way to follow this is to actually print out Table 1 (in colour if possible) and refer to it directly when reading the following discussion.

The Table has been colour coded. The colours in themselves have no significance but they are used to separate different family groups – sometimes these are quite small, single surname groups, or for larger grouping of different surnames which have some elements in common. Participants’ results are uniformly referred to by their kit number.


Table 1 - Marker Comparison (click to enlarge)

Haplogroup Q

At the beginning of the chart, we have one Bennett (15716). This DNA signature is normally associated with Native Americans (originating in East Asia) but a comment from Dr David Faux of Ethnoancestry is significant here. He says: 'I was given access to the skeleton findings of a Shetland database a while back and was astounded to learn that 8% of the sample were typed at haplogroup Q - the same percentage as haplogroup I. My first "Q" emerged recently in a participant with a patronymic surname...Clearly the distribution pattern points to a Norwegian source dating back to Viking times.'

Eastern European Connection

McGregor (5356) and the two brothers (7422 and 9338) belong to a DNA haplotype J2 that is found in Britain, but rarely. It is most common in Eastern European countries, leading to speculation that it is either from gypsy background or, possibly, from Eastern European soldiers stationed in Britain during the Roman occupation in the first three centuries AD. These two (or rather three) MacGregor results are more than likely too distant from each other to be from the same individual within the historic period. MacGregor (Horn (19304) is probably also part of this group but the DNA profile could also be I1b (which is possibly Scandinavian in origin). Only a haplogroup test would confirm this. Bennett N6998 is also almost certainly in the J haplogroup since the DNA signature is like kits 7422 and 9338 who have confirmed their haplogroup as J2.

The Irish/Scottish Viking Group

The group Magee (208290) to Nevins (2314) are quite closely related and are all from haplogroup I, the Viking haplogroup, specifically Norwegian (from the occurrence of the specific numbers). It is possible that these are descendants of the Viking kin group which settled in the Northwest Scotland/Isle of Man/East Ireland after the Viking invasions of the 9th century AD. Although the common ancestor of these individuals may be some time back, possibly two millennia – there is no question that the kin group was a very tight one – being all descended from a single individual and probably aware of their connections.

The Grier/Greer subgroup (shaded in green) almost certainly represent descent from one individual of that name, with the possible exception of Greer 17630 who probably has too many DNA mutations (21 out of 25) to make him related directly to this group within the time of the adoption of surnames. To be definite about this, it would be necessary to see 37 marker results from this whole group. However, it is striking that an individual can have so many mutations more than others yet still be part of the surname group, derived from the common Viking ancestor. As we will see later with the Stirlings, this cannot easily be explained, except possibly through geographic proximity at the time of adoption of surnames.

All those who have tested hereafter up to (but not including) Orr in Table 1 are from the haplogroup R1b – perhaps THE most frequently found male haplogroup in Europe. It is common across Spain, France, Germany, the Low Countries, Britain, and Ireland and, as I have written before, represents spread out after the last Ice Age but all having a common ancestor who lived 20 to 30 thousand years ago.

Other MacGregor Lines: Back to Those Named MacGregor

Kits 24470 and 11773 could well be related. Kit 17790 might belong to this group.
These 3 are in yellow.

Kits 20123 and 1774 are related: this is almost certainly the Glengyle family. Denoted by blue.

Kits 13429 to 22187 might well be related to each other more recently (by which I mean from 1603 to 1850). This is hard to prove without a better paper trail. This group is in green.

Kit 4714 seems to be currently an isolated result and therefore connected more distantly in time (in the 15th century for example). This entry is white.

Kits 3346 to 10454 seem to be very closely related, sharing the same DNA sequences for the most part with the Chief’s line. If these individual are not just examples of very ‘stable’ DNA then they must be related more closely to the Chief’s line and to each other. This group is given in light yellow.

Kit 13165 may go with the above group or the ‘original’ Stirling group.

Kits 12511 and 24029 may be related more directly to each other or they may be separate family groups. These two are in darker yellow.

Kits 12596 to 26174 (in orange) appear to share common characteristics which may indicate family connections.

Kits 12436 and 17711 (given in puce) are not directly related to each other but seem to be a wider and more ancient connection to the MacGregor group as discussed in the update before this one.

This brings me on to those individuals in group R1b who are not immediately connected to the ‘original’ MacGregor line.

Part-takers/Those with Similar DNA

Turk
The Turks (kits 11655 and 21757) are related to each other and have a resemblance to the MacGregor line. They are traditionally called after Brig o’ Turk in Perthshire where there has been a strong MacGregor presence for many centuries and where the Glengyle family had land at one time. The DNA suggests that the family origin story may indeed be accurate.

Greer2
The Greers 10589 and 35624 are related to each other almost certainly but not to the earlier Greer group. These could be descendants of Grierson of Lag in Dumfriesshire as suggested by the family genealogies.

Grigor?
The MacGregor/McGregor group from 2726 to 27811 have many general DNA matches with other surnames, but, are almost certainly from the same family. From paper evidence this would be a family using the surname Grigor and living in the vicinity of Perth in the 17th and 18th centuries. This group are coloured dark blue. Two of this group are known cousins.

The next group of MacGregors/Greig/Gregg/McGhee are not related to each other and represent single families who have either adopted the name MacGregor or use the version now found. They share a common ancestor with the MacGregor line but before the development of surnames though there is still the possibility that the connection goes back only as far as the time of Kenneth MacAlpine.

McAdams/Gregory/McGregor
Of the remaining results in this section McAdams 3133 and 9567 appear to be related; Gregorys 25690 and 36102 likewise; McGregor 29834 and 36394 are potentially related, and 7783 may be part of this group.

Grierson/Gregg/Grieg/MacGregor
The next group – from Grierson 7874 to Gregg 20673 have very close genetic similarities, which, from the paper trails, suggest a possible recent Irish origin and descent from a common ancestor pre surnames. The two Griersons 7874 and 33323 are almost certainly directly related post surname adoption. The same is true for Mc/MacGregors 4715, 2944, 17929 – a suggestion here of a second, smaller and more recent MacGregor surname origin which could bring in the Griersons too may give at least one reason for the persistent story of connection between Grierson and MacGregor.

McAdams
The fours McAdams 16568 to 11256 are likewise probably similarly related to each other in recent time

MacGregor 36727 and Gregg 20673 seem to be separate families though tied into the overall high level of connectedness pre surnames.

Foxton
Finally in the R1b sections there is the Foxtons who are not related to anyone else but ARE related to each other. These are given in yellow.

Orr
A new grouping, coloured in green, is the Orr family. I have mentioned these before in previous updates. Their haplogroup is not R1b but R1a , they are all related and have identified an Irish origin for the extended family. By the way, Orr 16713 is not of this family group unless there was an adoption or illegitimacy in that family.

McAdams
Next we come to the two McAdams 3714 and 5223. These have identified a common ancestor but their actual DNA origin is from the comparatively rare haplogroup E3b suggesting an Eastern European or middle eastern origin. These families could descend from Roman auxiliaries or Neolithic farmers who had come into Britain.

Older Viking
The final group from Mitchell 36808 to MacGregor 31436 are not related to the main MacGregor lines or indeed any of the others so far mentioned, expect that they have an ‘older’ form of the DNA sequence associated with Haplotype I – the Viking group – but suggestive of a different settlement pattern than that of the Irish/NW Scotland group. Possibly the ancestors of these came into Eastern England/Scotland from different Norwegian origins than the earlier group.


Chart A - DNA linkages (click to enlarge)

Chart A above shows DNA linkages based on distance from each other. It is interesting to see which names group together. The bunching of Stirling is particularly significant showing a common time depth for origins. For the main line MacGregor, only the chiefly line (2124) is given.

[McGre(g) is short for MacGregor, Stir for Stirling and Dougal for MacDougall of the Isles, McPet for McPeters, Grego for Gregory]

Earliest known ancestor detail for the new Stirling Group

13635 - Feltus Barrow Stirling, Jr., earliest known ancestor Andrew Skirling, b. Kinnettles, ca 1714, married Jean Nevay ca 1735, d. Nov. 1780, interred Kirkton of Kinnettles. Descended through Andrew's son Alexander Stirling (bapt. 07 Jul 1751, Kinnettles), who emigrated prior to the American Revolution and eventually settled at West Feliciana Parish, Louisiana.

16710 - Wayne L. Stirling, earliest known ancestor John Skirling, b. ca 1730, probably in Barry, Scotland, died aft. 1784, Barry or Panbride, Scotland. Descended through John Skirling's grandson, James (bapt. 17 Jul 1792, Panbride) who emigrated in to Upper Canada 1840 with his wife, Elizabeth Lawrence, and their children, Three of his brothers (George, Alexander and William), their wives and children emigrated at the same time.

13678 - John Anderson Stirling, earliest known ancestor David Skirling, b. ca 1745, married Janet Wallace 01 Aug 1773, Dunnichen, d. 15 Mar 1798, Dunnichen. Family still living in Scotland, though branches did emigrate to New Zealand and the United States.

23501 - William Stewart Stirling, earliest known ancestor James Stirling (or Skirling), b. ca 1740, married 26 Dec. 1773, Kinnettles, Margaret Whyte of Kinnettles, he was from Inverarity, d. before 1858. Family still living in Scotland, with some branches in the United States.

A Brief Discussion of the New Charts

Note: The 25 marker charts (1 through 3) have all the results to date for writing (early August 2005). However some recently reported 37 upgrades have not yet been included in the 37 marker charts. These will appear in the 37 diagrams for the next update. It is necessary to fix a cut off point for updates or else they would never get done with the constant influx of results coming in.

Table 2 lists all the 25 marker results I have in my hands to date except that where there are individuals sharing results (either exactly, or with very few mutations) I have grouped these all together into one ‘super result’ (for example 29MacG2124 – is 29 MacGregor results together within kit 2124 with mutations discounted).


Table 2 -25 Marker Results (click to enlarge)

This is to allow participants who do not fit into these ‘super groups’ to see where they lie. Thus Charts 1 and 2 are not specifically intended for members of the ‘supergroups’ but for the others. Most of these ‘supergroups’ have 37 marker results and therefore appear in the later charts (3, 4, and 5).

Chart 2 fits onto the bottom of Chart 1. Chart 1 is the diagrammatic representation of the haplogroup R1b for members of the project. Most project members belong to this haplogroup. Note also the haplogroup E3b. This is a quite separate haplogroup distant from R1b – on the chart the connecting line from R1b has been foreshortened for space purposes making it look as if there is a shorter time distance between them.

Note: In Charts 1 and 2, kits are identified by 3 letters of the surname and last three letters of the kit. The program only allows 6 letter identifiers. Usually, I will use the whole kit number.


Chart 1 - Haplogroup R1b (click to enlarge)

Chart 2 shows members of the haplogroup R1a (always Orr) and haplogroup I – there are two branches of this haplogroup. The branch leading to Nevin, etc., is the ‘younger’ branch in Britain – supposed to be associated with the Viking invaders of the 9th century (to Ireland and the Western Isles).


Chart 2 - Haplogroups R1a and I (click to enlarge)

Chart 3 shows all the 37 marker results from the MacGregor project excluding those who match the bloodline and are called MacGregor. All these are ‘within’ the red star labelled 2124. What is remarkable is how dense the next layer out is called Stirling. Although Stirling was a known alias, I cannot currently explain the DNA similarity with the MacGregor line in so many cases.


Chart 3 - 37 Marker Results: Excluding MacGregors (click to enlarge)

Chart 4, also 37 markers, is the full set of 37 results (but note that the computer programme only shows kit 2124 where the DNA match is exact - thus 2909, for example, matches 2124 exactly, so 2909 does not appear independently). The clustering effect of the MacGregor bloodline results (in a star-like pattern) is normal for strongly related results. The lower kits are named because they did not fit, for the most part, into Chart 3. The Gregory (?) is my indication that I am not sure why the program chose to place these results with effectively the Viking Group when the results themselves suggest membership of the R1b haplogroup.


Chart 4 - 37 Markers: Full Set (click to enlarge)

Chart 5 gives a labelled version of, primarily, the MacGregor main group. Again, exact matches are taken into the red circle for 2124. The circles SCO can be ignored . They refer to the process of contracting the connections between different results to avoid large numbers of lines on the page.


Chart 5 - MacGregor Main Group (click to enlarge)

Submitted Genealogies

Below are the known genealogies of the 37 marker participants. There are some interesting PLACE tie ups which currently do not correspond with DNA, but of course a place can have different branches of the 'family' in it - as we showed in the 1787 children list for Balquhidder parish, printed in the CGS Newsletter 50. Further comment appreciated!

Brief notes on the earliest known ancestry of DNA participants: if there is no information listed, then I have not been given it at this point.

The order follows the updating chart which is the Family Tree DNA public web site for the MacGregor project. Unless otherwise stated, all places referred to specifically in the text are in Scotland.

---

Kit No:

5356 descends from Alexander McGregor born 1818 Pennsylvania

19304 from Daniel McGregor born 1819, married Elizabeth MacLachlan and connected to Kilmun parish, Argyllshire (family emigrated to the US).

12189 is believed to descend from William Lowrie whose supposed son William married Isobel Craig in 1680 in Banff parish, (Scotland).

24029 descends John McGregor, born 1766, died Nov 1847; and his wife Anne Lang, born 6 May 1766, died 22 Jan 1840. Their youngest son Alexander, born 9 April 1805 was my immigrant ancestor who came first to Ontario in 1842, later to USA. The earliest information about John McGregor came from a letter written by his grand daughter Eliza McGregor McKenzie in 1931 and later published in American Clan Gregor Society’s 1932 Yearbook: ‘My grandfather on my father’s side was John MacGregor, who was born in Scotland in 1766. On June 1, 1788, he married Anne Lang. Eight children were born to them: John bo. 1790 James. bo. 1792, Robert bo. 1794 (died when a baby), Robert 2nd bo. 1796, Mary bo. 1798, Jessie bo1800, Annie bo1802, Alexander bo. April 9, 1805, at Renton, Scotland

7587 and 7183 descend from James MacGregor who married Maria Scott (possibly in 1853 at Wakefield) and emigrated to the US, and believed to descend from John (Mc)Gregor and Ann Dunn in Bankfoot Auchtergaven (son James who married Grizal or Grace Davidson).

15199 descends from Gregor MacGregor born c1770 at Auchmore in Fortingall parish. The family emigrated to Canada and the US.

1961 descends from Richard Gregory about 1580 from London8100 descends from James Gregory born c1700 in Scotland Note these two individuals are almost certainly related – both families are now in the US.

8339 descends from Alexander Greer bo. 1780 North Carolina (and may descend from James Grier bo. 1708 Co Antrim Northern Ireland).

10897 descends from Alexander MacGregor who married Margaret MacFarlane in 1847 in the Gorbals, Glasgow. Members of this family are now in France. This is almost certainly a Glencarnoch family (i.e. of the Chief’s line).

10454 descends from Donald Roy MacGregor (married to Margaret MacGregor) who lived in Rannoch in the early nineteenth century. This family is now in the US.

22187 is believed to descend from Patrick McGregor or Stirling born c1700, married Janet Fergusone: variously in Balquhidder/Callander/Kilmadock parishes. This family is now in England.

12511 descends from John MacGregor born 1827 in Scotland, emigrated in 1852 to the US (New York).

25633 descends from William McGregor who was a weaver/tailor in Glasgow, known as William The Weaver bo1791 in Perthshire, Scotland and d. 1871 in Peterboro, Ontario, Canada. Married 3 August, 1817 in Campsie, Stirling, Scotland Margaret Elizabeth [?] Taylor bo. 24 May, 1790 in Campsie, Stirling, Scotland d. 1892 in Peterboro, Ontario, Canada. They had four [4] sons and one [1] daughter. The sons were all apprenticed to a brother in Glasgow to serve as coopers. In the late 1800's the family emigrated to Peterboro, Ontario, Canada. William continued as a weaver/tailor but the sons all became farmers and emigrated from Canada to the United States.

16858 descends from Malcolm McGregor born c1812 in Fortingall, he married Catherine Kennedy in Clunie parish and the family emigrated to the US.

1774 is descended from the MacGregors of Glengyle (not Rob Roy’s branch). This family is now in the US.

18760 is descended from Peter McGregor from Fowlis Wester (born c 1800) who married Elizabeth Muller or Miller and the family subsequently emigrated to the US.

20123 descends from Angus MacGregor born c1850 in Fort William. This family subsequently emigrated to the US.

24470 descends from James MacGregor bo. about 1760 in Muthill parish m. Katherine McNabb of Callander Parish July 2nd 1793 Children 1) Margaret bo. about 1795 m. Capt Donald Fraser - 1816 in Montreal, Canada; 2) Edward bo. ? in war of 1812 - 14. battle of Lundys Lane death ??; 3) Duncan b. 1800 d. 1884 at Fournier, Ontario. The family emigrated to Canada in 1800 to the Toronto area and owned 400 acres at Markham. They moved in 1823 to Glengarry area, reason unknown. Duncan m. Catherine Fraser from Glengarry cty, of Glen Roy.

2124 is descended from the MacGregors of Glencarnoch (Chief’s line).

2909 is descended from possibly Peter/Patrick (son Hugh Evan) who were from the late nineteenth century resident in Jamaica.

3346 descends from James born 1760 in Weem parish and married at Jean Stewart in 1782 at Dull parish. This family still lives in Scotland.

4714 this family is believed to descend from Duncan McGregor in Fortingall parish married to Chirsty Cameron in the late 18th century. This family now lives in England.

9290 this MacGregor family using the alias Stirling descends from Robert Stirling born 1668 at Gateside of Glassingall, Dunblane parish to William Stirling (?d1688). Robert died in 1747. The family now lives in New Zealnd with branches still in Scotland.

13429 descends from John McGregor 1828-1895 born Balnaguard, Dull parish. The family still lives in Scotland.

2125 is believed to descend from Patrick Malloch or MacGregor who had a son John in Kenmore parish in 1729. This family is now in the US.

12596 is descended from John McGregor born 1807 in Paisley, Renfrewshire (to parents John McGregor and Ann Watson), died 1871. This family is still in Scotland.

17990 descends from Alexander McGregor who married Janet McGregor. They came from Lochearnside and moved in the early 18th century to Drummond Moss in central Scotland which was being drained at the time. This family is now in North America.

16798 is descended from John McGregor who married Ann Stobie in Monzie in (1826). (John was the son of John Row? McGregor and Mary McDonald). This family is now in Australia.

13621 a Stirling MacGregor shares the same ancestor as 38027 and 9290 above. Some of this family are in Scotland, others branches in Australia.

Further notes on the Stirlings:
This McGregor family using the alias Stirling descends from Robert Stirling in Gateside of Glassingall parish of Dunblane. Robert's occupation bet 1693-1647 was as farmer in Gateside of Glassingall. He Died 22 May 1747 at Gateside of Glassingall, buried 24 May 1747 Dunblane Cathedral Churchyard in the Stirling lairs which are now under grass.

Robert was an Elder and Treasurer of Dunblane Kirk, his son John was also Treasurer of the same Kirk.

Kits 13621, 38027, and 9290 have the same ancestor; 13621 and 38027 descend from James, where as kit 9290 descends from Henry last child of Robert.

Miltary Service. Robert's son James fought on the Jacobite side at Sheriffmuir the ancestor of 13621, 38027. James was in the Duke of Perth's men who failed to charged, so he charged with Alexander Drummond of Balhaldie (MacGregor} his relative, with the MacGregors, James was also at the battle of Prestopans in the 1745s.

10589 descends from Nathaniel Hunt Greer born 1802 d1855 (?descended from Thomas Grier d. Pennsylvania 1790).

2726 is descended from Alexander MacGregor who fought in the Revolutionary Wars in the US.

27811 descends from James Grigor born in 1771: his parents may have been John Grigor and Janet Duff of Monidie, but it is difficult to connect, with certainty, from one generation to the next in the old parish registers. In 1804 James married Rebecca Richardson in the neighbouring parish of Redgorton. They had 5 children: John (1805), Isabell or Bell (1807), Jannet (1811), Gregor (1814) and Joseph (1818) all baptised in Monidie. James died in 1818 before the birth of Joseph. In 1839 Gregor married Jane Young in Auchtergaven. For most of his life, Gregor McGregor was gamekeeper at Dunkeld for the Duke and Duchess of Athol. At first the family lived in Dunkeld in a cottage called Tully Mully.

[Comment: the DNA correspondence between 27811 and 2726 suggests that they share a common ancestor, presumably the father of Alexander MacGregor ancestor of 2726 or one of his immediate ancestors].

28296's earliest known ancestor is William McGregor, who married Catherine McLaren in 1782 in Callander parish, and lived in Duncraggan. His great grandson, Duncan, immigrated to Sydney, Australia in 1887. It is believed that William was born William McComas in 1755 in Duncraggan, the son of Donald McComas and Janet Ferguson, who were married in Callander parish in 1744. Donald may possibly be the son of Thomas McComas and Marion McNie, born in 1719 in Duncraggan.

9690 descends from Thomas Greig 1753-1833 Aberdeenshire (Rathen parish). This family is now in the US.

17711 is descended from John MacGregor (bo. 1825) at Milnathort, Kinross and he married Johanna Susan Healey from near Dublin Ireland - all his biological children were from her. His second wife was Susanna Nauffts of Halifax, Nova Scotia John was son of Mary MacGregor (and ?Duncan, a carter). This family is now mainly in Canada.

2363 and 4151 descend from John Callum married 1735 to Christian Harriwood in Keith Banffshire. The family (re)adopted the name McGregor in1778. This family now lives in England.

19870 descends from William McGhee 1839-1916 Philadelphia County US.

20630 descends from David Alexander Macgregor, born in Scotland in 1852 from Edinburgh via Carlisle with his father, James Ross Macgregor in 1854 The father, an engraver and experienced book binder, tried to expand his business in the US by engraving Christmas cards. James' father, David, was an Edinburgh artist whose paintings of ships hang in several museums including the art museum in Edinburgh. David's (James' father) wife was apparently a Mackenzie, the neice of Captain Donald Mackenzie, the celebrated soldier from the Crimean War and the Sepoy Rebellion.

14973 descends from George Gregg 1740-c1786 Scotland. This family is now in the US.

6376 descends from William Dowie born 1776 in Newburgh Fife (married Mary Smith). This family lives in England.

3133, 9567, and 12683 are probably descended from the same individual. It is said that 3 brothers went to America about 1740 and lost track of each other. Tradition says they were military members of the Scottish ‘Black Watch’ regiment sent to the Orangethroup Colony in Georgia, or they came to the US from Ireland. Earliest known ancestor of 9567 and 12683 was Thomas McAdam born c1735 and lived in Washington Co. Tennessee, US and earliest known ancestor of 3133 is James McAdam born 1748 in Virginia, USA, but this family went there from Washington County. Member 23214 of the McAdams project is probably of this family.

7874 is descended from John Grier born Parton Dumfries 1714. This family currently lives in Australia.

7783 descends from Andrew McGregor (c1840 Fossoway-1903, married to Helen Taylor in 1861) the son of John McGregor (a cellarman) and Mary Whyte. This family now lives in England. NB this is not believed to be the same family as kit 17711, although the similarity of name and place is striking.

6979 is descended from Thomas Gregg c1805-1871 Co Tipperary, Ireland. This family is now in the US.

13403 descends from John McGregor born 1759 in the Highlands -c1823 (and married to Mary McMillan) who became a soldier and went to Canada where the family still lives.

8857 is descended from a McAdams ancestor who emigrated to Texas from Armagh Ireland c1779. This individual and members 20224 and 21318 of the McAdams project appear to come from the same family group.

5276 is descended from John McAdams born c1735 and married Sarah Sloss in 1754 in Pennsylvania, US.

4715 is descended from Patrick McGregor born 1768/69 in Ireland, died 1841at Mains Dundee (through son Francis). This family has remained in Scotland.

11255 and 11256 are descended from Robert McAdams who went to the US in 1774 – the documentation suggests that the family descend from the Craigengillan McAdams family of S.W. Scotland. 16568 is probably related to this family through another branch who came to Orange Co. from Lunenburg Co. (in the U.S.) in the 1770s. Also related to this family group are 20244, 20245 and 20225 in the McAdams project.

3714 and 5223 descend from Thomas McAdams born before 1737 (d..c1766) in County Down, Ireland – the family emigrated first to Charleston, US in 1767.

All the Orrs so far tested, with one in Ireland, appear to originate from the family of that name in Co. Donegal, Ireland.

23729 descends from John Orr (b.1805 Donaghadee, County Down, N Ireland) and Eliza Nevin. John Orr and Eliza Nevin are likely descendants of Ulster Plantation settlers. The earliest reference found of Orrs living in County Down, N Ireland, was 1626. Almost all of the early settlers were from Ayrshire, Scotland.

Where are we now? Update #4

This is the fourth update on the MacGregor DNA project. The number of participants in the project has now exceeded 100 – it currently stands at 104, although the number of active participants is in fact 89.

There has been a steady trickle of new members since the last update in September 2003 and at the time of writing this there are still a good number of test results outstanding.


Table 1 - Marker Comparison (click to enlarge)

In order to understand this update, it is really necessary to follow through the previous ones as I have only labelled the newest test results on the phylogenetic trees of this update. I have adopted this approach simply for clarity, and to enable newer participants to determine how connected they are to the various branches. Rather than present the whole graphic, I have chosen this time to concentrate on the central group – virtually all of whom are from the Haplogroup R1b (once called Celtic, now properly referred to as Palaeolithic).


Chart 1 - Simplified Haplogroup R1b (click to enlarge)

Chart 1 shows a simplified version (compared with charts in previous updates) of all the tests completed to date. To avoid cluttering up the chart, I have only labelled those new results previously unplaced. It will be obvious however that the group of results around the MacGregor bloodline (the large yellow circle) is too dense to make out the detail.

Chart 2 - Main MacGregor Bloodline (click to enlarge)

Chart 2 therefore, concentrates only on the MacGregor bloodline – which corresponds, more or less, to Haplogroup R1b found across Europe (Spain, France, North Italy, Germany and the Low Countries). Basically this is the result of expansion from an ancestral Y chromosome which developed during the last Ice Age in Iberia. Note that the Viking line on this chart goes off towards the top of the page rather than towards the bottom as in Chart 1, but otherwise is unaltered.


Chart 3 -MacGregor Bloodline: Wide Range (click to enlarge)

Chart 3 is a magnified version of Chart 2, focusing on those results which make up the MacGregor bloodline (elliptical shape labelled ‘Main’) and those tests results which might be directly connected but have more mutations than would be expected (Wider Group). New test results are given on this chart to enable participants to see where they lie. As in Chart 1, the main MacGregor bloodline is the largest yellow circle. Individual members of the project should contact me for clarification if required.


Chart 3 -MacGregor Bloodline: Narrow Range (click to enlarge)

Chart 4 narrows the results down even further to concentrate only on the MacGregor bloodline and those most closely related. [All charts are derived from phylogenetic software from: http://www.fluxus-engineering.com/]

Chart 5 - Genetic Distance Relationships 1 (click to enlarge)

Chart 6 - Genetic Distance Relationships 2 (click to enlarge)

Charts 5 and 6 are two new charts which look very much like a traditional family tree. It is important NOT to read these as ‘family trees’ which show ‘family’ connections. I have included two because careful examination will show that there are different ways of interpreting the genetic relationships. However, the Viking and ‘recent Irish’ groups are still clearly grouped together. They are marked off by two parallel lines //. I have marked off the MacGregor bloodline group in the same way.

I am reasonably confident that these three particular groups show common descent from
1) Gregor the name father of the clan (or his immediate forebears) for the MacGregor bloodline;
2) a common Irish ancestor within historic time for the Irish group; and
3) a common’ pre-Viking’ ancestor for the Viking group.

All the individuals named Orr are related, but not to any of the last three groups, and various Grier and McAdam families are definitely related to each other but again not to any of the three lines above. There is evidence for separate origins for McAdam(s), one Irish and one probably not, and similarly for Grier (Greer), one Irish, one probably not. No other relationships are identifiable. On Charts 5 and 6 the kit number and surname is given.

Remember these trees indicate genetic distance and we can be talking about thousands of years (that is, relating to colonisation following the last Ice Age).

The tree software uses ‘Phylip’ from http://evolution.genetics.washington.edu/phylip.html to generate the necessary grids, and the Tree Drawing software is from http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/treeview.html.

Richard McGregor
Chairman Clan Gregor Society
DNA Project Coordinator