The MacGregor DNA Project

MacGregor DNA Project annual update 2012

2011-12-29T11:49:00.018Z

MacGregor DNA Project annual update 2012

Welcome to the 2012 update of the MacGregor DNA project. For this update, as a result of the nature of the test results which have appeared over the past year, I am concentrating on three groups: Greig/Gregg/Grigor; MacGregor distant and Septs. There have been only a few Ian Cam MacGregor new results this year and a few upgrades from 37 to 67 markers. At the end of this article I comment on what relationships if any can be inferred from those results. I will also comment on relationships to be found in the various subgroups that are listed on the results page at www.familytreedna.com/public/macgregor. This year’s update does therefore not include discussion of the Ian Cam group, the Irish related group and the Viking groups which have all been covered in detail in recent updates. At the moment I am not including discussion of McAdam(s), Grier and Gregory results as there are separate projects for these which have many more results than those listed in the MacGregor project. However as always I am happy to provide commentary on these by e-mail.

The three groups which I am dealing with this year should not be thought of as containing participants who were all related in the recent past. Most of the branches of the trees presented here are several thousand years old before they converge on a single ancestor who was the original founder. This means that there are participants who share the same name but not the same genetic signature within the time of the adoption of surnames (from approximately 1300-1350). However what the charts do suggest is some definite and some possible connections which participants may wish to explore further. Often these connections are through the same surname even if spelt differently (when only church clerks could write how they chose to spell a name was sometimes idiosyncratic). Occasionally the trees suggest a connection between individuals with different names. This can be simply an accident of genetic mutation but could suggest a connection relating to the late adoption of a surname, or of adoption.

For the two groups after the Gregg/Greig/Grigor tree I have drawn two charts which include the same information. The first chart has no labelling apart from the kit number and the first couple of letters of the name of the earliest known ancestor (I had to adapt a couple of entries but these should be obvious). The second chart contains the information supplied concerning the earliest known ancestor of the line. In some of the charts these labels can be quite close together but hopefully comparative use of the two charts should make it clear what label belongs with which branch.

In these charts I include the MacGregor of Glencarnoch entry (kit 2124) and the typical Gregory signature for the largest group of that family (kit 179683) again for comparison.

Chart 1 Gregg/Grieg/Grigor (excludes the Gregors near Perth who changed to MacGregor in the late 18^th/early 19^th centuries)

This chart suggests:

- Gregg kits 137236, 76121 and 110496 are closely related – unfortunately no ancestral information has been supplied

- Gregg kits 130191 and 6979 are closely related and seem to have an connection with Tipperary in Ireland

If these two lines (and Gregor 44975) are connected it will probably be at the earliest time of surnames

- 214992 Gragg, 7489 Gregg and 141020 Gregg are all related through a common ancestor. Interestingly this is one instance where two quite different spellings are from the same family. There appears to be a connection therefore between Kilkenny County in Ireland and South Carolina

- Gragg 158127 and 81282 are related and appear to come from Antrim in Ireland

- Greig 9690 and Grigor 131056 are probably not related by surname – there is a possibility that both families originate in the north east of Scotland. The fact that the MacGregor of Glencarnoch line is attached to this branch has been discussed in an earlier update – the suggestion is that this connection dates from what has been known in the past as the Dark Ages (c500-1000).

- Gregg 64662 and Greig 45360 are related and appear to have a Scottish connection

All the other lines are almost certainly separate genetic lines and not related directly to those discussed above. Chart 3 is a chart which takes the entries above and places them in a grid which estimates the time to the most recent common ancestor. The numbers should only be used as a guide since DNA mutates randomly. The grid is generated by Dean McGee’s Y-Utility found at http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html?mode=ftdna_mode. What is obvious is that the time distances between individuals extend well beyond the time of the adoption of surnames.

Chart 2 Gregg/Grieg/Grigor Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor

Part 2

MacGregor (Distant) charts (includes the Gregors near Perth)

In the following charts what is immediately clear is that these are a good number of families called M(a)cGregor who are separated from each other genetically and that their common ancestor existed before surnames.

Chart 3 – unlabelled MacGregor distant

There are several reasons why different families adopted the same surname and previous updates have explored some of these in depth. Briefly, families adopted surnames to replace patronymics (so Donald McGregor would replace Donald son of John son of Ewan, or sometimes Donald son of Duncan son of Gregor), or, a surname was adopted to be part of the clan group – especially if living on land owned by a powerful or influential Laird or Chief. There are, for example, quite a few people called Grant today because their ancestor lived on the land owned by the Laird of Grant. Sometimes these changes of name are recorded in the parish registers when a child is baptised but often not.

Chart 4 MacGregor distant - labelled

I will discuss this chart from left to right clockwise starting in the lower left corner.

- kit 5356 is very distant from all the others and goes off the page for the same distance again since this result belongs to a completely different haplogroup (group which defines a more common genetic origin). All the others in this group belong to haplogroup R1b which dates back approximately 12,000 or more years so 5356 is connected many thousands of years even before that. There is no significance to the fact that 213368 and 15199 connect to this line. These are single result families at this point and not connected in time of surnames

- 155381, 99676, 186233, 164124, and 158870 – all these, from the evidence, are related. It seems likely that this family originated in Rosshire

- 170627 (no genealogical details) and 75529 Drummond alias McGrigor in Kincardine, Perthshire may be related in the period of surnames but all the others in that group (117991, 98515, 60181, 79517 and 179182) are either not related within the surname period or are connected in the centuries before proscription of the clan (from 1603)

- 13403 (John born 1753) and 130631 (no details) are probably related to each other within the last 400 years – it is less likely that 20630 James Ross MacGregor is other than distantly related to them

- 153633 James born in Forgue and the Gregory line are quite separate from all others and not connected in surname time – the connection is certainly 2000 or more years ago.

- 27811 (James Gregor Moneydie) and 161907 (no details) are definitely related, as are 7183 John Gregor Bankfoot, 2726 Alexander MacGregor 1770 and 138485 (no details). Charts in earlier updates have suggested that these five should be considered as a group and may have their origins using the surname Gregor in parishes near to the town of Perth.

- 132396, 167829, and 90803 (no details supplied for these) – if there is a connection here it must be very early or DNA has been subject to increased mutation

- 178662 Daniel 1814 and 100843 Alexander in Creich – likewise this is either an early connection or DNA has been subject to increased mutation

- 95193 James in Rathven could be related to 94589 Charles in Clackmannanshire but again this would be either distant or DNA has mutated quickly, but 94589 is closely related to 158917 and 129009 no details for either)

- 65444 and 35981 Patrick McGregory can only be related distantly

- 153297, 4151 and 198351 are all related and probably descend from three brothers born 1769, 1772 and 1766 respectively. Since this is my own family I can be quite sure about most of the detail in it. What is significant and therefore may hold true for other families too is the significant amount of mutation that has occurred in each branch over the last 200 years. The computer program still links the three lines together but the short time distance and the relatively long twigs that are produced over such a short time suggests that similar rates of mutation could be found in other families. This is why it is hard to say that some families are definitely NOT related within the period of surname adoption.

- The next branch containing MacGregor of Glencarnoch 2124 and 17711 John, Milnathort, 122079 James, Greenville, 121543 (no detail), 28296 Donald McComas and 17621 James McKinlay all appear to be closely related but the problem here is that we believe there has been no mutation in 2124 in 600 years which would put connections earlier than the adoption of surnames. This may explain why James McKinlay and MacGregor of Glencarnoch are related as there is a tradition of connection between these clans pre surnames. Alternatively McKinlay could be an alias adopted by a MacGregor but again it would have to be very early in the 2^nd Millennium that this happened.

- 173181, 185487, 126138, 29834, 200914, 137093 and 84081are all related in some way to Rev William McGregor through collateral lines or forebears who lived a few generations before him

- 174561 is supposed to descend from Rob Roy MacGregor but the DNA suggests otherwise

Part 3

Sept names

In a way the Sept names are easier to deal with in that one does not expect these to be close together. A Sept was created by linking a surname with a clan, usually by tradition, and it is quite possible that individuals with the same surname are not related to each other (as for example with Black and King in these charts).

Chart 5 – Sept names unlabelled

Once again I begin at the bottom left and this time with the participants called Turk. There is no question that these individuals are all related and connected with Antrim in Northern Ireland. However the family has a tradition of actually coming from Brig o’ Turk in the Trossachs, Scotland. Their DNA signature suggests a connection with MacGregor of Glencarnoch that may have been before surnames were common. If this was a name adopted as a result of proscription then it was probably based on geographical proximity to the MacGregors and a shared genetic heritage going back into the ‘Dark Ages’.

Chart 6 – Sept names labelled

In the next group, the Skirlings, 16710, 13678 and 13635 are closely related, and the rest: 2124 MacGregor of Glencarnock, 205188 Enoch Murray, 23501 James Stirling Inverarity, 81803 Brown and 129382 Black are probably all related within the period up to the adoption of surnames rather than after it, so again this may demonstrate geographical proximity and a common ancestor during the ‘Dark Ages’.

203008 White and 179484 would have a common ancestor probably 2,000 or more years ago. There are no other matches for these in the project at this point. A similar comment applies to the group 205721 Shanklin, 61249 Walker, 3963 Black and 179683 Gregory. This is the same for 208986 Whyte and 168162 Magee (this last has a different genetic origin from the larger group which will be discussed later). The same applies to 126778 Black and 95320 West. 104782 Gregson 50101 White, and 10279 McPeters are singles with no matches in the project at 37 markers.

120116 and 115596 are not related to others in the project apart from, surprisingly 27575 King, but are closely related to each other. 17586 McGeorge and 158878 Dougall are not closely related – it is just that their respective DNA has not undergone much mutation. 41034 and 188467 both share the surname Black and look as though they could be distantly related but their individual DNA has mutated rather quickly if that is the case. 74820 and 179850 have the same known ancestor and are indeed closely related genetically.

All the other DNA profiles are unrelated to each other and the rest of the group with the possible exception of 32205 White and 114313 Lackie who may share a common ancestor in the last 600 years. 108644 Black, White 151731 and 166858 Grigsby are from completely different haplogroups than the R1b shared by all the other participants in this group. They all belong to haplogroup G but even in that group they are quite distant from each other. According to Wikipedia:

Various estimated dates and locations have been proposed for the origin of Haplogroup G. The National Geographic Society places haplogroup G origins in the Middle East 30,000 years ago and presumes that people carrying the haplogroup took part in the spread of the Neolithic. Two scholarly papers have also suggested an origin in the Middle East, while differing on the date. Semino et al. (2000) suggested 17,000 years ago. Cinnioglu et al. (2004) suggested the mutation took place only 9,500 years ago.

Finally in this group, all the participants, apart from the one already mentioned, who bear the name Magee, McGehee, Mackgehee and McGee are all closely related having no doubt descended from the ancestor who emigrated to the United States in the 17^th century.

General Comments on other results:

In the Ian Cam line kit 191228 was received this year. This line has sufficient mutations to suggest that it has developed independently for some hundreds of years, possibly since the time of proscription. However the DNA may imply an ancestral connection with kits 119330 (Malcolm b 1780 Buchanan), and James McPherson (bc 1752 Abernethy) and 94903 (no details) going back to the early 1600s.

Kit 217464 (no details) is also new this year. It is hard to place this exactly as a result of a very distinctive mutation in locus 29 (19 where most have 24 or 23). This means there could be a connection with 94903 (no details). Alternatively there could be a connection through the locus 32 mutation (to 19) with 152478 (no details), or 90446 (Duncan b 1795 Paisley), or less likely, 119330 (Malcolm b 1780 Buchanan) and 4714 (Duncan MacGregor Fortingall 1773?).

With one exception all the McFarlanes in the Ian Cam group, however spelt, are related to each other genetically as well as having a distinctive signature that suggests a MacGregor connection.

At the outset I promised a comment on each of the smaller groups listed in the DNA project page at www.familytreedna.com/public/macgregor.

All these comments relate to a comparison of the Y chromosome as the results appear on the FtDNA chart. It is possible that a male adopted the name of his mother rather than that of his father. Any relationship between such males cannot be verified genetically at the moment.

The two Andersons are not closely related genetically. The Gruar/Grewar pair ARE closely related genetically. 34571 M(a)cDonald is not closely related genetically to 90496 and N12949 but these last two are related genetically within the period of surnames. All the Magruders in the project are related to each other. 147767 McLachlan and 149586 McLaughlin are not related to each other or to 153144 McLaughin and 84701 McLaughlin. However I would expect these last two to be related through a quite recent common ancestor since it looks like 84071 has faster mutating DNA up to this point. The McNee/McNie pair ARE closely related and should look to find the common ancestor. 187136 Mitchell is not related to the other two in the group. A2881 could increase to 37 markers which would probably confirm a connection with 126082 Mitchell.

In the Moore group the four individuals are probably not genetically related in the time of surname adoption although it is hard to be absolute about 18134 who has only tested 12 markers. The two individuals in the Mustard group ARE closely related. In the Nichols group it is possible that 112863 and 202529 are related within the time of surname adoption but in that case would have more rapidly mutating DNA. The other two are not related either to each other in the Y chromosome and indeed 65000 belongs to the G haplogroup whereas the others are R1b.

I have spoken about the Orrs in previous updates. The two Reids are not related genetically, nor are the three Smiths (and 24436 has Viking DNA). In the Stirling (other) group 52255 Starling and 41885 Starling are closely related. The other two in the group are not related to each other or to these two.

At the moment I have not attempted to draw a chart of the ungrouped entries but will do this during the year for report in the next update. In the meantime if anyone in the ‘Ungrouped’ section would like to indicate to me if they have matches within the MacGregor project subgroups at 35/37 and 63/67 and above I will run their results within the group to which their matching project member belongs.

Finally a note about 67 matches. Keith MacGregor (Clan Gregor Society North America representative) has raised a question with me on the issue of public availability of contact information on order that individuals can contact directly (from the charts I generate) others who appear closely related through the various branches. Unfortunately as a result of the data protection laws in Britain I cannot release that information but I do give the kit number so that members of the project can easily identify each other using when using the Matches section of their personal DNA webpages on Family Tree DNA.

I would point out, however, that not all individuals with 67 marker matches are members of the MacGregor project, and in fact with a few exceptions those on the matches grid who show 5 to 7 mutations away from an individual often have surnames which are not related to Clan Gregor at all. These are not generally people whose ancestors adopted aliases but indicate how little genetic mutation has occurred in the last 2000 years in many families’ DNA. More distant 67 matches will almost certainly NOT have the characteristic marker mutations which distinguish members of the MacGregor bloodline. In particular we would expect to see the fourth and fifth markers as 10,10, the 12^th marker usually at 30, and the 29^th marker usually at 24. It would be unusual in the MacGregor bloodline profile for ALL of these markers to show mutation.

These reports are always longer than I imagine they are going to be and I try to be as clear as possible taking account of the fact that DNA mutates randomly and therefore the prediction of connections cannot be an exact science. As always I am prepared to answer questions from participants with regard to individual results. Please contact me on richardmcgregor1ATyahoo.co.uk.

The trees are generated using the program Splitstree4 for which the following reference applies:

D.H. Huson and D. Bryant ‘Application of Phylogenetic Networks in Evolutionary Studies’, Molecular Biology and Evolution, 23(2):254-267, 2006.

January 2011 MacGregor DNA Project update

2011-01-01T21:34:00.023Z

Welcome to the MacGregor DNA project January 2011 update. I have decided to present it in a slightly different form this year, making use of the earliest known ancestor genealogies which participants have provided on the Family Tree DNA website. As I hope to show these pieces of genealogical information can be extremely valuable in linking the DNA results with family histories and can give clues as to possible previously unknown relationships.

I would encourage those who have not already done so to make use of the section under User Preferences on their personal DNA pages to indicate earliest known ancestor. It does not matter if this ancestor is only known in the place of emigration and not in Scotland since it is possible that clues as to the actual place of origin may come through links with DNA relatives. I have worked mainly with entries which have provided such information rather than make the charts much less easy to read as the result of labels which indicate ‘no detail’. However, some charts do include ‘no detail’ entries so that possible avenues of investigation could be pursued.

What this update focuses on

I have dealt primarily with those surnames immediately related to MacGregor – that is, Gregor, Grigor Grieg, Greer, Grier, Grierson, but some other representative surnames are included by single examples embedded in the charts (e.g. Magruder). In addition I have run a series of charts for the DNA profile which FTDNA assign to ‘descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages’, which as will be seen below groups a variety of surnames within a rather tight timeframe, for the most part indicating connection in the Dark or Middle Ages.

If your kit has not been included in this update then please feel free to contact me, and I will run a chart for you with whichever other entries you wish – though it may take a while if everybody mails at the same time! It normally needs about 15 minutes to generate a chart without genealogies: adding genealogy detail increases the time required considerably as it has to be done by hand. Some of the other surname groups have not been included, partly because there are often specific projects for these names (e.g. McAdam) and in many cases genealogical information is missing. You can see the current state of the project at:

www.familytreedna.com/public/macgregor

If you see that your genealogy entry is blank this is the time to sort it! If you have forgotten your various codes then you can contact me with the relevant information (about 8-10 words of text only) and I will do it for you.

Chart generation methodology

In previous updates I have included details of the process undertaken to produce the charts so I will not repeat that here, except to add that the labels were added in a simple ‘Paint’ program making use of the T(ext) feature. The labels are added to the chart to be as near to the kit number to which they apply – this means that, depending on the shape of the tree chart they can be above, below or beside the relevant kit number. For those interested, all the charts have been generated using a standard 40% likelihood of Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMCRA) and using the mutation rates defined by Doug McDonald. As I was preparing this update I experimented with various configurations including using 95% confidence and FTDNA’s rate calculations. What the 40%/McDonald combination does is generally to pull older dates further back into the past and more recent dates closer. Occasionally a few (no more than 2 or 3) participant results change places on the charts when using these two different modes of generating chart material, and I will comment on a couple of these as I go on. At the end of this update I show an example of this variation on a limited number of the ‘Irish’ 67 results through Tables generated by Dean McGee’s Y-DNA Comparison Utility:

http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html?mode=ftdna_mode

DNA commentary – Ian Cam group

[Note: double click on the charts to view]

Chart 1: MacGregor (Ian Cam) group 67 markers

What this chart suggests is that participants 185140 and 50589 are very closely related and possibly descend from two brothers in Kenmore, or certainly a father or grandfather of the same. A more distant connection might bring in participant 3346. The McFarland/McFarlane/McFarlins are all related – or rather all those in the project are – presumably through founder effect in America. Participants 26174, 16798 and 168387 are all related but that was known before. Chart 1 suggests that kit 2125 might be connected with this branch but chart 2 below (generated using 95% confidence and FTDNA mutation rates) shows 2125 connected with 1774. As this represents a change from supposed House of Roro to the House of Glengyle clearly some more results are needed to try and make the exact connection of 2125 clearer! Other connections worth investigating are:

- a possible more recent ancestor for 191035 and 94875 linking Perthshire with Govan - another result coming into this pair might help to clarify this apparent similarity

- a possible connection geographically between Buchanan Stirlingshire 119330 and Abernethy/Kincardine in Strathspey with the adoption of the McPherson alias for 121048

- a suggestive link with upper Loch Tay 133637 Stronfearnan 133637 and the emigrant ancestor of Pennsylvania in 1802 of 131269 and 146413 [I’m sure I’ve seen some indication of Love used as an alias in Balquhidder but I can’t quite identify it in my sources]. Also connected to this group is 108707 whose earliest known ancestor married in Irvine in 1815

- a possible connection between Alva (26752) and Glasgow in 1847 (10897)

- a possible connection between 2909 whose ancestor turned up in Jamaica and Loch Rannoch (10454)

- an interesting thought that the ‘Renton’ John (24029) could be connected to the ‘Forfar’ John 44327 - in a previous generation – and as a result, a possible genetic relationship for the participant named Pierson (believed to be previously Stewart)

- 187511 and 24470 descend from the same individual in Muthill

- the Stirling connections were already known

Chart 2 Ian Cam group 67 markers using 95% confidence/FTDNA mutation rate

Additional Notes:

- participants 94903 and 121048 could be more distantly related, though there is no further detail on these

- possible connection between 119330 in Buchanan, Stirlingshire, 26752 in Alva Stirlingshire and 90446 (no details) [this might seem to contradict a link between 119330 and 131269/146143 – but see the next main paragraph]

Chart 3 Ian Cam group on 37 markers

Many of the links suggested in Charts 1 and 2 above hold true for the smaller number of markers but there are some additional possibilities and a cautionary message concerning mutations.

We’ll start with the cautionary: if you look at the chart you will see that 131269 and 146413 appear to be at some distance from each other. This is because there are 3 mutations difference and, rather unusually (that is in perhaps 1 case out of 50) these are actually from the same known family. Since 131269 shows less mutations from the modal (that is the average of all the participants in this group) it means that 146413 has acquired more mutations than would be expected in what is effectively less than two centuries. In fact there is some indication that in large families the oldest and youngest males can have a mutational difference, and there’s also some circumstantial evidence that the older the father is the more likely it is that the DNA will have a error on the ‘passing on’, in other words, a mutation.

This means that we should always consider possible links between members with similar DNA as exactly that – possibilities, not certainties. The problem is more evident when dealing with a common ancestor who lived in more recent times. With more distant genetic connections as seen in chart 5 these differences tend not to be so obvious or significant.

That said, the following links are possible:

- Auchtar in Perthshire (129554) and Kilsyth Stirling 1745 (28699) though at some distance in time

- Possible links between Kilmun (near Dunoon) (108052), Paisley 1807 (12596), Rannoch c 1762 (12162) and Perthshire c 1750 (94875) - if there is a more recent common ancestor for this group it might be someone who lived in the time of the early proscription (from 1603)

Chart 4 – various M(a)cGregor results at 37 markers to show possible geographical origins

In this chart we are dealing with a much greater time span than just 600 years from the founder Gregor/Ian Cam group so the results begin to collect together more clearly. The locations are suggested based on the participants’ statements of most distant known ancestors.

Starting from bottom left:

- a very clear group of 5 individuals who certainly descend from a common ancestor and that person may well have lived in Rosshire, perhaps in the 17^th century

- N62107 and 153532 may well descend from a founding ancestor in America

- 126138, 17381, 84081 and 29834 almost certainly all descended from Rev William McGregor traditionally from Glen Ossian in Scotland

- 129009 and 94589 appear to share a common ancestor in Clackmannanshire

- 95193, 100843 and 13403 could be distantly related and possibly in the north/north east of Scotland

- 27811, 161907 (no detail), 138485, 2726 (Scottish place of origin not known), and 7183 may be connected to an ancestor living in the vicinity of Perth - and the genealogies suggest that the name during proscription was Gregor not McGregor

- the lower right consists mainly of some representative members of the Ian Cam group with 17711 and 28296 possibly representing earlier genetic connections (i.e. in the Dark Ages) unless these families have experienced more vigorous DNA mutation

Chart 5 The MacGregor Distant group with Greig/Gragg/Grigor (also includes representative Magruder result), on 37 markers

This chart does NOT include members of the Ian Cam MacGregor group.

Starting from the left hand middle:

- these two results (5356 and 19304) are probably both haplogroup J and not connected to the main R1b group shown here

- Gregg results 6979 and 130191 share a recent common ancestor, presumably in Ireland. The connection of 75529 John Drummond McGregor to these seems unlikely

- There could be a connection between 94589 in Clackmannanshire and 100843 in Sutherland. In the late 18^th century and during the early 19^th century there was a great deal of movement from the very north of Scotland to the Lowlands for work. The ministers of the Sutherland and Caithness parishes speak of it in the 1^st Statistical Account of Scotland 1793. Most of this movement was seasonal but some workers settled in the Lowlands (and usually because they had found a bride!). It’s possible that something like this happened in relation to these two results

- 45360 Greig and 64662 Gregg may be distantly related: the location Pathhead in Scotland might give 64662 a place to start looking for connections

- there’s a strong suggestion of distant genetic links among the group which has Magruder 61472 to Grigor 131056 but this will almost certainly be pre surnames in the ‘Dark Ages’

- a possible geographic connection between 9690 Greig and 131056 Grigor (this would have to be extended out to 67 markers to see how well the connection held up)

- an interesting (to me as it is my line) possible connection has emerged between 4151/153297 and 20630 which I am currently investigating genealogically

- the 158127 and 81282 Gragg results clearly do indeed share a common ancestor although at the moment no connection with Greig/Gregg is evident

- the proposed Rosshire group is represented here by 158870 and 164124

- N62107, 153532 and 164088 are clearly related to each other, probably through a founding emigrant, though I cannot yet directly place these results with other MacGregors for comparison

- the two Greggs 137236 and 110496, for whom I have no genealogical details are clearly related, probably to a founding emigrant

- the line of Rev William McGregor of ‘Glen Ossian’ is represented here by 29834 and 84081

Chart 6 selected results from the Distant MacGregors, Gregory, Greer, and Gregor surname groups on 67 markers

Chart 6 brings in some exemplar results from other MacGregor related surname groups based on 67 marker results which also have stated genealogies. Some results which do not have genealogical detail given are also included:

- the Ian Cam group is shown at the far right. The 9690 Greig result and 36006 are shown here to be very close genetically to the main Ian Cam group. Results like this suggest either a genetic line with a tendency to mutate faster, or, a connection to MacGregors pre Gregor the traditional 13^th/14^th century founder. It would be nice to think that this gives support to the descent of different lines from King Alpin as the genealogies suggest, but we need a lot more results before making that a definitive claim!!

- the Gregory results in the middle left are interesting because they suggest descent from a common ancestor, presumably an early emigrant to the United States. However the genetic connection to any other members of the group is very very distant

- still on Gregory, N52932 (David Gregory no detail) may share a common ancestor with 36102 in Virginia

- there is an interesting possible correspondence between 29834 (Rev William McGregor) and the Greer of Fermanagh 57019

- finally a possible linkage is suggested between 121543 (McGregor no detail), 130108 McGregor Loch Katrine, and 122079 James MacGregor Gow

'Irish’ DNA

One of the ways in which the geographical origin of genetic groups is being, and will in the future be, deduced, is through the use of SNPs. These have nothing to do with the Scottish political party but the acronym stands for Single Nucleotoid Polymorphisms and they define older population splits, as distinct from STRs – (Short Tandem Repeats) which are used in surname studies such as this one (where participants receive a string of numbers which can be compared with those of other participants).

Family Tree DNA says the following:

The Y chromosome contains two types of ancestral markers. Short Tandem Repeats (STRs) trace recent ancestry. The second type of ancestral marker, SNPs, document ancient ancestry. SNPs are small "mistakes" that occur in DNA and are passed on to future generations. SNP mutations are rare. They happen at a rate of approximately one mutation every few hundred generations.

You can read the rest of this at:

http://www.familytreedna.com/snps-r-us.aspx

Irish genetic studies tend to identify this specific geographical location through two different routes. First it is generally predictable by the series of STR results which looks similar to this:

393	390	19	391	385 a	385 b	426	388	439	389 i	392	389 ii
13	25	14	11	11	13	12	12	12	13	14	29

Generally the 25, 11, 13, and the 14 on the 2^nd, 5^th, 6^th and 11^th markers respectively are present in the participant’s DNA signature as in the above example, although there can be mutations.

Family Tree DNA have gone further and, on the basis of documented studies, suggest that those with this sequence (and extending out to 25 markers) are possibly descended from Niall of the Nine Hostages, one of the “Kings” of Ireland (FTDNA calls him a ‘warlord’). You can read the relevant page here:

http://www.familytreedna.com/landing/matching-niall.aspx

Whether this is strictly true or not there is no doubt at all that those who bear this signature have a comparatively recent link to a common ancestor in Ireland (no more than 3000 years ago and quite likely even more recent) and all the R1b results in the Greer/Grierson/Gregory/McGregor group given below have this characteristic. The link can be further confirmed by testing SNPs as there is a characteristic mutation known as M222+ (i.e. ‘positive’ – they have it) which is common to this group.

The following participants have had this SNP tested and are confirmed positive

4175 (McGregor), 7874 (Grier), 81125 (Gregory), 76382 (Greer), 127845 (McGee), 155715 (Greer), 165777 ( Greer), 165907 (McAdam).

For interest you may wish to know that the main Ian Cam line has also been SNP tested and the current result is:

P25, M269, S116 (P312), S127 (L11), S128 (P311), S129 (P310), S145 (L21)

(the numbers in brackets are the alternative labels for the same SNPs)

If you follow FTDNA’s assertion then all the participants on the following charts are descendants of Niall with the probable exception (though with an earlier connection) of Skinner 57893, White 120077, and McGregor 35727. In order to test how this might hold up I did a couple of Tables for ‘Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor’, using a variety of ways of generating data, and as you will see there is comparatively little time difference, most results falling after the lifetime of Niall (believed to have died c 450AD).

Chart 7 - Irish related 37 marker results with genealogies

More recent (but this could be after Niall and before surname adoption in cases where the surnames are different) genetic connections are suggested for:

- Mitchell N6852, Gregory 81125, Magee 149721 and McGreer 72557

- White 2153, McGregor 4715 and Black 136599

- Stranahan N5324 and Strannigan (Stranhan) 4717

- Black 112442 and McGee (127845)

- Greer 27441 and Grierson 173150

- Grier 7874 and Grier 94757

- Greer 97279 and Greer 106143

- All Greers:- 176539, 165777, 46156, 76382, 102002, 155715 - common emigrant ancestor
from Dumfries area?

Chart 8 – Irish related 67 marker results with genealogies

Although there are less participants results to show here the groupings (those which remain) stay the same as above except that McGrew 81138 comes closer in to Mitchell N6852 etc.

Chart 9 (Table 1) and Chart 10 (Table 2)

These two Tables take the results of chart 8 and compare each with each other using two different mutation rates and probability factors. As I suggested earlier the only real differences are that the older dates are pushed a little further back using 95% probability and FTDNA mutation rates, while more recent dates are brought closer to the present time through the use of 40% probability and the Doug McDonald derived mutation rates. The numbers are ‘years before present’, and the table is read as you would read a distance chart for different towns in a country. These figures should only be taken as guides since they are based on average rates of mutation: some families therefore show more mutations than average, and some show less than average.

Finally, I was sent an interesting little table that compares the DNA of a couple of individuals at 25 markers with the proposed DNA for certain famous individuals. Perhaps one day we will be able to include King Alpin! These ‘Famous DNA’ predictions can be found at the following websites (compare your own!):

http://www.isogg.org/famousdna.htm

http://www.isogg.org/famousmenu.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_haplogroups_of_historical_and_famous_figures

Chart 11 (Table 3) - comparing participant and ‘famous DNA’

[Please see 'Comments' below - I have revisited David Grierson's comments on last year's report. Please do read them and mine below].

Finding your DNA matches in the Family Tree DNA website

2010-01-03T00:42:00.006Z

The charts in the Clan Gregor DNA update January 2010 can now be matched to the color coded surname grouped entries on the Family Tree DNA MacGregor project website (please remember though that some surnames are found in two groups - the Grier/Greers are both 'Viking' AND 'Scots/Irish' for example - however, please do read David Grierson's extensive comments concerning the Griers, 'Irish related' and Chart 7 in the Comments section following the main 2010 DNA update post). To go to the surname grouped entries now, click here:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MacGregor/default.aspx?section=yresults

MacGregor DNA Project update January 2010

2010-01-02T00:22:00.020Z

MacGregor DNA Project – update January 2010

Welcome to the annual update for the MacGregor DNA Project. One of the principal, but happy, difficulties in presenting a report on the MacGregor DNA group is in deciding how to break the results down into small enough groupings so that the diagrams do not become so dense they are unreadable. With 439 results posted as I write this, we remain one of the biggest of the Scottish clan projects. With so many results an attempt to put them all onto one diagram would create something that was not legible. This year I have therefore decided to concentrate on surnames and the surname groups which appear when viewing the Family Tree DNA MacGregor project website (www.familytreedna.com/public/macgregor). As a result I have not made charts which link some haplogroups together (for example there is no specific chart here with both R1b, the Atlantic Modal group – sometimes associated with the ‘celtic’ and the I group, generally applied to the Viking invaders). I am always prepared to generate specific charts for individuals if they would like to contact me.

Before presenting the charts just a few words about how they are generated. I take the raw data from the results page as published by Family Tree DNA and export it into an Excel file. For the purposes of identification I keep the kit number and surname. In many of the charts then each entry is identified by its kit number and part of the surname. For some of the charts however I have cut the surname label down to a letter key only which is given under the chart. With the Excel file complete I copy and paste the whole into the online Y-DNA Comparison Utility created by Dean McGee http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html?mode=ftdna_mode using 50% as the Probability, 30 years per generation on average, and the McDonald Mutation Rate figure. I check the box which asks if I want ‘PHYLIP’ data. Once the program generates results I go to the PHYLIP box and copy the results – these I then paste into ‘Splitstree’ a downloadable program that creates the charts www.splitstree.org:

D. H. Huson and D. Bryant,

Application of Phylogenetic Networks in Evolutionary Studies, Mol. Biol. Evol., 23(2):254-267, 2006.

I use 50% most of the time because this seems to produce dates for comparing individuals which more or less conform to what the genealogies suggest concerning family splits. The programs use a combination of number of mutations related to mutation rate to produce likely time distances between each individual’s results compared with each other person’s results. This can sometimes produce less likely groupings for some more distant connections, separating those that probably ought to be together. However for more recent splits, as will be seen, the charts give some good indicators of family groupings.

CHART 1 - MacGregor 'bloodline' 67 markers

This first chart compares all those ‘bloodline’ MacGregors (spelling is irrelevant) who have undertaken the 67 marker test. It includes 3 others, Gelston, Reid and Peterson who have similar DNA results to the MacGregors – and the chart suggests that the connection of these three is somewhat earlier in time than for the others in the group. The main group contains a McNab (60111) and a MacFarland (120820) who seem to have at least a genetic connection, which suggests either a split just at the time of the adoption of surnames or two examples of the use of an alias (not unlikely as the McNabs were numerous in the Killin area, and the MacFarlanes in the Loch Lomond area). Any results which group together on a twig are likely to have come from the same root individual. A good example of this is the Stirlings who are believed to all come from a Robert MacGregor alias Stirling born in the 1660s. This group have a distinctive mutation in the third panel which no other MacGregors share. Therefore if kit numbers 3346, 44327 and 24029 are indeed related to this branch then the split off from the Stirling group is quite likely to have happened pre-1660. This chart was generated using 95% Probability – reducing to 50% does not change the groupings at all.

It’s worth commenting that the program does not always preserve the groupings in the same way – though not presented here I have another version of this chart whose result significantly alters the position of kit 1774 – to make it an isolated branch on its own. This is interesting because we believe 1774 to be of the Glengyle family which is the sub group of MacGregors to which Rob Roy belonged.

CHART 2 - all MacGregor 67 results other than 'bloodline' (those in Chart 1)

This chart groups all those in the project who are in the haplogroup R1b (with 67 marker results) but excludes the group of MacGregors who are in Chart 1 with the exception of kit 2124 MacGregor, used for reference purposes. It’s interesting that the program groups McKinlay (17621), a more genetically distant McGregor (28296) and a Skirling (13635) into a sub group, and then connects these with another group of more genetically diverse McGregors, a Greig (9690), a McWhannel (46397), and a Macadam (49834). On the other side of the chart the two Turks are clearly related, the two Starlings (41885 and 52255), the McGehees (74970, 51942, 121911) and Welcher 93788. Peterson 15223 and Reid 153633 seem also to be related more directly.

CHART 3 - all MacGregors tested 37 markers (without 'bloodline', 'Irish' and 'Viking')

This chart includes all MacGregors who have tested at 37 markers but omitting 1) the main ‘bloodline group’, 2) those MacGregors believed to be specifically Irish in genetic origin (these are on a later chart) and 3) those MacGregors who are genetically Viking (these are also on a later chart). Here some particularly interesting groupings emerge. Kits numbered 99676, 164124, 155381 and 158870 are clearly all related and all the known genealogies point to a Rosshire origin (and they may have used Gregor as a surname at some point). Kits 129009, 94589 and 158917 are again clearly related – the only genealogy submitted there has its earliest generation in Clackmannanshire. Kits 84081, 29834, 137093 and 126138 seem to be related to the Rev William McGregor, purportedly from a place called Glen Ossian in Scotland, one of a band of brothers – Bartlett, John, Andrew and Alexander. Kits 2726, 138485 and 7183 seem to have a common origin in the vicinity (that is, within 15 miles) of Perth and may have used Gregor as a surname for a period. Kits 153532, 164088 and N62107 are certainly related but I do not have any genealogical data for these. Finally on the chart the 3 results on the far left are quite separate in origin and belong to different haplogroups from R1b to which the bulk belong. The next chart cuts out some of the other results to show three of these distinct MacGregor groups more clearly.

CHART 4 - as Chart 3 but with some detail removed

CHART 5 - Gregor, Grigor, Gregory, Greig, Gregg or Gragg.

This chart lists all participants (at 37 markers) called Gregor, Grigor, Gregory, Greig, Gregg or Gragg. The code used is as following: numbers only = Gregory; Gr = Gregor or Grigor; E = Gregg; EIG = Greig; A = Gragg. The letter N is a Family Tree DNA kit designation and has no significance. The most striking part of the chart is the collection of Gregories at the very bottom who are certainly from a common and quite recent ancestor. The program suggests that there may be some connection between Gregory 81125 and the Greig and Gregg results beneath – the time distance involved here could be as much as 500 years from the original split. Apart from these, other potentially related groups can be seen working clockwise round the chart. The two Greggs 130191 and 6979 are definitely related as are 110496 and 137236; the Graggs 81282 and 158127; the Greigs 64662 and 45360. There is a potential genetic relationship between Greig 9690 and Grigor 131056. Further information on many of these families can be found in the Gregg and Gregory DNA projects, and also some genealogies at:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MacGregor/default.aspx?section=results

CHART 6 - Irish DNA group (does not include 'Irish' McAdams)

This chart contains all the specifically Irish DNA (37 marker) results which are characterized by, in the first 12 markers, a 25 at marker 2, 11,13 at markers 4 and 5, and 14 at marker 11 though not all results will have all these mutations. The Irish results show a strong similarity to each other indicating a common ancestry in prehistory, but in more recent times the Greers (however spelt) seem to have common ancestor of that name, possibly linking with the Griersons 7874 and 94757. Again 2124 MacGregor is included for reference. White 120077, Skinner 57893 and McGregor 35727 are also more distantly related genetically. Compare this chart with the next which lists only Griers (however spelt) and Griersons – all results, and genetically Irish McGregors. The key for this is M = McGregor; S = Grierson; all others are Greer/Grier.

CHART 7 - 'Irish' results on 67 markers

This chart has the Irish based 67 marker results and shows two discrete groups all having common point of origin and indicating the close genetic ties of the Griers etc. Also on this chart are the Orrs – one in the Irish group and the rest a separate haplogroup R1a, who might also have their genetic origins in the Viking invasion of Ireland but who certainly have Irish connections at the present time.

CHART 8 - Grier(son) groups - different genetic origins

Again this is 37 marker results. The Grier/Grierson group on the right seem to share a common ancestor within the time of surnames; the Grier/Greer group in the middle has a separate origin and one might conjecture that these are the Griers of S.W. Scotland – connected to the Griersons of Lag. At the far left is a mostly very strongly related Viking group of Griers, and again these might be conjectured to have descended from a Viking settler in East Ireland.

CHART 9 - Magruder, McNie, McAdam and participants in the 'unattached' R1b group

This chart shows McAdam, Magruder, McNies and other participants whose results are listed at the FtDNA results page unattached to any specific group (37 markers). From this chart we can see that there are various groups of McAdams suggesting different origins: 83205 and 82874; 12683, possibly, with 5237, 76324, 144894, 16568, and 71022 (note this is a genetically Irish group); 54141 with 8857; 3714 with Thorn 48842. According to the groupings all other McAdams are singles or more genetically distant. The two McNies are related 66228 and 165873; the two Smiths 35819 and 32132; the Stalling(s) 21898 and 151153. All the Magruders are related 61472, 141702, 141700, 46179. MacGregor 2124 is again included for reference.

CHART 10 - MacGregor 'bloodline' on 37 markers

This chart contains all the MacGregor bloodline results with 37 markers. Some of the groupings are revealing as will be seen. The key for this is S = Stirling G = Gregory; Macp = Macpherson; C = Campbell; McNa = McNab; J = Jamieson; Ba = Bain; D = Drummond, McF = McFarland. All others are MacGregor however spelt. Kit 2124 is marked with an MM in front.

CHART 11 - Sept or like names grouping (37 markers)

This chart has all those who are listed in the group ‘Sept or like names’ with 37 markers. Kit 2124 is included for reference and interestingly there is a group of Stirlings with similar DNA to 2124 – but this group of Stirling are quite distant from the earlier group of Stirlings whose ancestor is Robert MacGregor alias Stirling. The Turks are all closely related as are all those at the bottom of the chart whose name is McGhie (however spelt) (and Welcher). Although there are Magees with the typically Irish signature, this group do not have that DNA signature and may be Scottish in origin.

Chart 12a - 'Viking' groups on 37 markers
Chart 12b - 'Viking' groups on 67 markers

These two charts show the Viking-related genetic results from the project, the first chart with 37 markers and the second, those of the group who have increased to 67 markers. There are two separate genetic groups: those on the left are I2 and those on the right I1. The testing company Ethnoancestry (www.ethnoancestry.com) says the following about each group:

‘Haplogroup I1(*) is an indigenous European group and is hypothesised to have spread out from the Iberian refugium after the last glacial maximum 18,000 years ago. I1 reaches its highest frequency in Scandinavia and has a decreasing gradient in frequency to the East and to the South and West. I1 is relatively common in the British Isles, having been taken there by Norse and Danish Vikings as well as Anglo-Saxons’.

‘Haplogroup I2a(*) appears to have originated in the Balkans, perhaps from a glacial refugium there; I2a is very common in Croatia and Bosnia today and decreases in frequency across Eastern Europe. A rare offshoot branch of I2a is also found further West, including in the British Isles’.

‘Haplogroup I2b(*) appears to have originated near modern day Germany, where it reaches it peak frequency. I2b is found spread across a broad area of NW Europe including the British Isles, where it has been brought by numerous historical migrations’.

For note – apart from the above results the following participants have different predicted haplogroups: Kammer R1a1; Seuch R1a; Westran R1a1; Bennett N6998 J2; Stivadoros G

If there are any comments or questions about this update please address them to me: richardmcgregor1ATyahoo.co.uk

Winter 2008-09 Update

2009-01-02T18:05:00.009Z

Welcome to the MacGregor DNA update for winter 2008-9. The project now has over 370 members and the list of names associated with the project is large, containing a significant number of the sept names and aliases associated with the clan. The results, grouped according to significant names or groups of related names, can be found at www.familytreedna.com/public/macgregor.

In previous updates, I have used drawing programs to illustrate ways in which the results can be interpreted in relation to each other, but there are now so many results that these diagrams become exceedingly difficult to read and I have therefore broken the results down into smaller units. Consequently, I am going to concentrate first on some broad conclusions which we might tentatively draw from the results. Then, I will consider how the different subgroups relate to each other. Finally, I will focus on particular subgroups and give some indication of what seems to be the relationship of individual members to one another.

From the results page (see link above), the largest group of MacGregors belong to what I have termed the Ian Cam group. This refers to Ian Cam MacGregor (Cam means blind in one eye), the first recorded MacGregor in the historical record. His death in 1390 is recorded in the ‘Chronicle of Fortingall.’ He is the earliest known ancestor of the current Chief and of many MacGregors who share his DNA signature.

This does not mean that all MacGregors have the same genetic signature; over time, mutations occur as a result of ‘mistakes’ in the copying of DNA from father to son. It has been speculated that the chance of mutation is increased according to environment, age of the father, and/or location of the child in the sequence of offspring. But none of these factors has been definitely proved. It is said mutations have no significant effect on the individual, but they do allow researchers to speculate, for example, on groupings of families. Also, all people named MacGregor or Black or Grier are not related to each other within the period covered by surnames. Surnames, even MacGregor, are adopted by individuals for many different reasons (e.g. inheritance, protection, illegitimacy, etc.).

General Conclusions

In this project there are three predominant groups which are designated under the labels R1a, R1b, and I. These are known as haplogroups. For the most part these are quite distinct. They are thought to have originated in different parts of Europe where people concentrated during the last Ice Age and as the ice melted they subsequently pushed northwards from where they had been located (see map 1).

Map 1 - Haplogroup Migration (click to enlarge)

Haplogroup R1a, as shown above, is assumed to have originated in the Caucuses, going northwards first then later westwards to enter Britain and Ireland, probably through Anglo Saxon or Viking incursions.

Haplogroup I is predicted to have originated in the Balkans and it is dominant as a haplogroup in Scandinavia and Denmark.

Haplogroup R1b followed the Atlantic Coast (and hence the designation Atlantic Modal Haplotype) and eventually spread out to be the dominant group in the whole of western Europe. According to Stephen Oppenheimer in The Tribes of Britain, there were two main emigrations and, in essence, these conform broadly to the haplogroup who retained the DNA marker score of 11 on allele DYS391 on the one hand, and the haplogroup who have a mutated position 10 at the same point, on the other.

How do we know which haplogroup is which from the DNA results? The answer to this, and scientists may wish to stop reading at this point, is that they can be predicted on the basis of previously known results. Scientists would assert that you can’t be absolutely sure unless you test the sample through the relevant processes. However, it seems logical to expect that those who share the same basic DNA profile would belong to the same haplogroup. It’s only at the edges of haplogroups that the results become ‘fuzzy.’

Specific Haplogroups

We’ll look first at the Viking I haplogroup as this, not surprisingly, has rather fewer members than the R1b haplogroup. It is not unlikely that the members of this haplogroup have ancestors who settled on the western coast or islands of Scotland or, where there is known Irish ancestry, probably from those Vikings who settled in the east coast of Ireland.

I have taken results for 25 (see Chart 1), 37 (see Chart 2), and 67 ‘markers’ (see Chart 3) for this haplogroup and the charts are given below. Since progressively less members of the project have had the 37 and 67 marker tests done, the number of individuals in the charts decreases. I have laid out the charts in the same orientation for each set of markers. The numbers refer to the kit number of the participant. Precise details for each kit number are found at the Family Tree DNA web site.

Chart 1 - Viking 1: 25 Markers (click to enlarge)

Chart 2 - Viking 1: 37 Markers (click to enlarge)

Chart 3 - Viking 1: 67 Markers (click to enlarge)

In all cases it is quite clear that there are two separate groups. One way of interpreting this is that they belong to separate invasion groups, a) Norwegian/Swedish based and b) Denmark/Frisian based. The Viking names include Grier/Greer, a MacGregor alias but, there is also a group of Grier/Greer in the R1b group so this might indicate either separate origins or, the intrusion of a Viking male line into the Grier line where the child has retained the mother’s surname.

The second haplogroup, R1a, is almost exclusively borne by the main Orr family in the project. As I have written before, almost all the Orrs in the project appear to descend from the same individual, possibly originating in Ireland (at least from the time of the Viking invasions). Only one other individual (named Westran) is in this group. The 67 marker results for these will be seen in the next diagram.

The haplogroup R1b is by far the largest in the MacGregor project. There are three distinct sub groups within it.

Those who have a DNA signature with 11 at DYS 391 and conform to the ‘Atlantic Modal Haplotype’
Those who have a DNA signature with 11 at DYS391 and are almost certainly indigenous to Ireland. This group includes Irish McGregors/Grier/Grierson (you may see this DNA sequence referred to as the ‘Irish Modal Haplotype’)
Those who have a DNA signature with 10 at DYS391This group includes the main line MacGregor

The chart below shows the R1a and R1b groups in relation to each other (note the single Gregory result (E1b) is included, showing that this one is an isolate and has a completely different origin). MacGregor refers to the principal MacGregor DNA profile (see Chart 4). This chart is based on 67 marker results.

Chart 4 - Relation of R1a and R1b Groups (click to enlarge)

To show this in more simplified form, I have taken one individual from each sub-group who is as near to the modal result (effectively the average) as I can find, and plotted them on a chart (see Chart 5).

Chart 5 - Simplified Relation of R1b Groups (click to enlarge)

Kit 2124 is the line of the Chiefs of Clan Gregor and this chart gives some idea of the distances in genetic time involved. On the left is the main MacGregor line compared with a representative of the DYS391=10 group. On the right the Irish group compared with a representative of the DYS=11 Atlantic Modal Haplotype group. The larger time distances could be as much as 10,000 years. Genetically these groups are very distinct.

We’ll look at each of these in turn, beginning with the Irish sub-group based on 37 marker results (Chart 6).

Chart 6 - Irish Sub-group (click to enlarge)

What this shows is that all the Irish R1b examples come from the same ancestor in the distant past but that in more recent times the Grier/Greer/Griersons appear to have a common ancestry, as do the McAdams with the interesting possible inclusion of a White. It is hard to explain why some branches of this tree seem to have mutated more than others – except that DNA mutations are essentially random.

Next, we move to the group who have a marker score of 11 at DYS391. Most of these will be descended from the original group of post Ice Age settlers (Oppenheimer’s first group) although, because DNA mutations are random, it is possible that one or two of this group originally had DYS391=10 and this DNA marker has mutated to DYS391=11 over the course of ten thousand years. There is no way to verify this. These results are based on 37 marker results (see Chart 7).

Chart 7 - DYS391=11 Marker (click to enlarge)

The time distances here are too long to suggest that many of these people are related within the time frame of surnames (from about 1300 on) except for Greggs 6979 and 130191 (and possibly Gardner as well), McAdams 8857 and 54141, McAdams 83205, and McAdam 82874 (from a different ancestor than the first group of McAdams) and McGregors 137093, 29834, 84081, 126138, and possibly McAdams 12683. The McGregors at least appear to share a common (not main line MacGregor) ancestor in Rosshire or thereabouts (these may originally have been calling themselves ‘Gregor’ and not MacGregor).

Chart 8 presents all those who have DYS391=10 and, as above, one or two of these could have had a more recent mutation from DYS391=11, but there is no way of identifying them.

Chart 8 - DYS391=10 Marker (click to enlarge)

Again, most of the individuals in this chart are not related to each other within the timeframe of surnames with the following probable exceptions: McGregors 7183, 2726, and 27811 whom I have previously speculated were Gregors in the vicinity of Perth. If 28296 is indeed part of this group, as the program suggests, then the connection is very old – and is probably heavily influenced in the programs’ calculations by the occurrence of a marker score of 12 at DYS460. Kits 121543 and 130108 are related and there is the possibility of a Gow related to these which may give a clue to where to look for this group – almost certainly in Perthshire. For Greig 9690 and Grigor 131056 there is a possibility that these represent a very early ancestor in the northern counties of Scotland (Aberdeenshire or Banffshire). Gregory 36006 looks as though it belongs to this group but, according to the genealogy notes, this line goes back to 1390 in Leicestershire so even though there are some similarities in the DNA results, a connection seems unlikely. Presumably increasing the DNA markers out to 67 would separate these out more. The Turks 21757 and 11655 are closely related, as are the Magruders 61472 and 46179, the Greers 35624, 10589, and 68070, and the MeGehee/Mackgahye/McGhies 19870, 74970, 51942, and Mackgehee 121911.

Finally we come to the main branch of MacGregors. The following chart, which is for 37 marker results, also includes some results which are ambiguous but suggest some kind of relationship to the main MacGregor group. This is particularly true of the Stirling results 13635, 16710, and 13678 (Stirling sub-group 1). These are not the same as the group which includes 13621, 38027, 58653, 9290, and 99443 (Stirling sub-group 2) who are known/assumed to descend from a MacGregor and who took the alias Stirling at the time of proscription of the name or soon after. Stirling 28834 has the distinctive mutation of 16 at marker DYS576, but has two more mutations which have caused the program to reallocate his position in the chart. It is difficult to explain why this one line acquired other mutations other than by random processes, unless the connection is earlier in time than expected. The sub-group 1 of Stirlings seems to be a much earlier split, possibly dating to the early Middle Ages (see Chart 9).

Chart 9 - MacGregor, 37 Markers (click to enlarge)

Chart 10 is the same but without the ambiguous results.

Please note in the following charts 99999_MacF should read 120820_MacF(arland)

Chart 10 - MacGregor, 37 Markers without ambiguous results (click to enlarge)

In general, close branching suggests possible family links, though it has to be remembered that the programs used calculate on the basis of numerical similarities NOT of known relationships. For this reason it is a good idea to increase the number of markers to 67 so that the random mutations might be less significant between related groups of families. The star-like cluster of these results is entirely what would be expected from DNA results derived from a common ancestor and because Chart 10 is for the MacGregor bloodline, only the length of the lines is relative; no matter what the length of the line in Chart 10, the descent is from the common ancestor Ian Cam MacGregor or the eponymous Gregor who may have been Ian Cam’s father if the genealogies are correct. Once other results are included, as in Chart 4 above, the relative length of these lines diminishes.

Chart 11 is the chart of current 67 results for the MacGregor main group.

Chart 11 - MacGregor, 67 Markers (click to enlarge)

On the basis of this chart, it is suggested that individuals might wish to compare genealogies if they occupy the same branches as others. While family connections are not guaranteed there is a much greater likelihood of these existing where such branch connections are suggested.

Finally, for those who are interested in the internal relationship between groups, Chart 12 gives the 67 marker results for all those who have DYS391=10.

Chart 12 - DYS391=10, 67 Markers (click to enlarge)

Members of the project who have not yet submitted genealogies or who need to update their genealogies, can contact me at richardmcgregor1 AT yahoo.co.uk (substituting the usual sign for the word ‘at’).

Professor Richard McGregor
MacGregor DNA Project Administrator
Chairman of the Clan Gregor Society
December 2008

Where are we now? Update #8

2008-01-02T19:24:00.024Z

Interpreting the results in relation to the current state of knowledge.

This is the MacGregor DNA Project update for January 2007 to January 2008. The January 2007 update is still the most comprehensive survey and summary of the various groupings in the project. New entrants to the project have their results pulled very quickly, where relevant, into the appropriate family grouping displayed at the website www.familytreedna.com/public/MacGregor.

I suggest that the best way to read this update is to print it out into hard copy and also download the charts separately into your documents folder and then open them using a program which you use for viewing pictures. This will enable you to blow them up larger and make reading the numbers and labels much easier.

Please send in your family information

What would be helpful at this stage would be for the Project Administrator to receive more information from more recent participants regarding their earliest known male ancestor and his family/location because this information is beginning to help identify geographical localities where related families were living.

By way of example, it would be possible to point out the, by now well-known, instance of the Irish group of results which appear to have some connection with the Irish kingly line of Niall of the 9 Hostages, and to which some McGregors, Griersons and Griers (as well as others) belong. Also, I have previously referred to a group of McGregors who seem to have changed their name from Gregor but who, for the most part, have connections with the area round Perth itself, rather than with the main MacGregor line. During the past year a similar grouping has emerged based round Rosshire where, incidentally, the surname Gregor or Grigor is found in relatively high proportions.

Groupings of MacGregors and related names

This update then concentrates on presenting various groupings of MacGregors and related names using both 37 markers and 67 markers. Unlike previous updates I have chosen not to include the Excel files of results because the Family Tree DNA site mentioned earlier is easily viewable, and the Excel grid from that site is downloadable to one’s own computer. Also I am now drawing the trees in a program called ‘Splitstree’, which once mastered, proves to be highly flexible for this kind of work.

A word of caution though; these trees should not be thought of as traditional family trees as such. What they measure is relative distance in time to the Most Recent Common Ancestor and this is expressed in the charts as the ‘modal’. However, because we are here talking about everyone being descended from an individual at some point in the past you will also find that a number of trees are given with ‘root’. This root may be less than a thousand years before the present for some groups but for other groups – like the collection of 67 marker results which is shown for the R1b haplogroup – the root individual will be several thousand years BP (Before Present) – even as long ago as the last Ice Age, 12,000 years or more ago. It is important to recognise this, and each chart is preceded by an explanation which hopefully clarifies it. The initial processing was done using the facility provided online by Dean McGee with the ‘Phylip’ option selected and then the resulting file processed by the Splitstree program. (See D.H. Huson and D. Bryant, ‘Application of Phylogenetic Networks in Evolutionary Studies’, Molecular Biology and Evolution, 23(2):254-267, 2006).

As an example to begin with, I present the collection of individuals surnamed Orr who have tested up to 37 markers [see chart 1]. With two exceptions (not included here) who are from haplogroup R1b, everyone in the Orr group is from haplogroup R1a, a haplogroup that emerged pre-Ice Age in, or about, the Caucuses in the furthest reaches of what is now Europe. Current thinking is that its spread was upwards and westwards for the most part and the haplogroup is now found in many areas including Britain and Ireland.

What we see in this chart is that everyone descends from one individual – and there is one person whose DNA has not mutated very much from the ‘modal’ (kit 100854) – the assumed DNA sequence of the founder. It would be interesting to know if this individual knows anything of his patrilinear descent. In the MacGregor bloodline group the main line from which the Chiefs descend IS the ‘modal’ line (that is, the presumed signature of the founder) and this may have happened, possibly, because of primogeniture (first child of first child, and so on).

Chart 1 - Surname Orr: 37 Markers (click to enlarge)

The second group to consider is that associated with the Irish DNA signature, widely believed to have some connection with the line of the Kings of Ireland – Niall of the 9 Hostages (circa 379 CE). What is interesting here is how the program groups individuals by distance suggesting that they may indeed share a common ancestor pre-surname adoption. This tree is based on 67 markers [see chart 2].

Chart 2 - Irish: 67 markers (click to enlarge)
It may be that this alternative form of tree [see chart 3] is easier to interpret – as long as it is remembered that it is not meant to suggest a family tree as such.

Chart 3 - Connection Tree

Clearly what is very interesting here is the fact that the Griersons and the Griers are obviously grouped together. Also potentially revealing is the connection between McGregor and McGreer and McGregor and Gregg.

I come now to the main MacGregor line (67 markers) – what we have termed the bloodline, though, as suggested earlier it may be the biggest group of MacGregors but, apparently not the only one [see chart 4]!

Chart 4 - Main MacGregor Line: 67 Markers (click to enlarge)

What is suggested by this is a potentially fruitful line of enquiry which may lead to the recognition of family groupings – see the known example of the Stirlings. One correction might be made here – kit 2909 and 2124 suggest separate lines but they could indeed from the same family grouping with some, very limited, mutation having taken place in 2909’s case.

The tree below gives all the 37 marker results currently available for those in the MacGregor bloodline [see chart 5]. Mark MacDonald, of The Clan Donald DNA Project, has suggested that the main MacGregor line (and other clans, too) is descended from Colla Uais (circa 323 CE), one of the High Kings of Ireland who brought his men over from Ulster during the Dark Ages to occupy Dalriada . If he is right, then this could explain the motto ‘Royal is my Race’ (rather than, or as well as, descent from Kenneth MacAlpine). It is important to note that the Irish McGregor descent from Niall of the 9 Hostages, another Irish High King, is NOT the same as Colla Uais descent. These two Irish-based Kings lines only share a common ancestor at the time of the Ice Age (see Stephen Oppenheimer’s [2006] The Origins of the British - A Genetic Detective Story, Constable and Robinson, London ISBN 1- 84529-158-1, published in the U.S. by Carroll and Graf, New York). However, it does mean that whether the MacGregor descent is from Colla Uais or from Niall of the 9 Hostages, both groups of MacGregors can claim ‘Royal is my Race’!

Chart 5 - Main MacGregor Line: 37 Markers (click to enlarge)

What this particular tree shows, when examined carefully, is that there are 3 distinct splits or perhaps better, points from where groups branch off. Towards the top of the picture is one group, and includes Bain N3589 and kit10897, and the lowest group includes 1774 which is believed to be the Glengyle branch of MacGregor. As more results come in it will be interesting to see whether these group collections are maintained. At this point it would be hard to assign any particular significance to the groupings since they are based, it will be recalled, on distance from common ancestor, although similarity of DNA marker score does determine which groups are connected.

The next tree [see chart 6] contains all the DNA 67 marker results for the haplogroup R1b excluding bloodline MacGregors, but including 2124 the MacGregor bloodline, for purposes of comparison. As can be seen there are many branches. Of note is the split which includes the MacGregor bloodline (2124) as it groups with McWhannell and McKinlay and seems to be connected in some way to the Greig line of kit 9690.

Chart 6 - Haplogroup R1b: 67 Markers (click to enlarge)

Just to complete this short survey, I have abstracted all the Viking-related I haplogroup lines which have 37 marker results and the chart [CHART 7] shows very obviously that there are two groups of results here, possibly suggesting an older settlement of I haplogroup peoples or different invading groups (such as Norwegian and Danish). It would be instructive to find out if the individuals in these two groups are to be found in discrete geographical locations in Britain and Ireland. I have kept the box round the Greer at the bottom of the chart because its location is quite difficult to see otherwise.

Chart 7 - Viking: 37 Markers (click to enlarge)

Finally, here is the equivalent tree, in two forms [see charts 8 and 9], for ALL the R1b results which are NOT from the Irish group descending from Niall of the 9 Hostages. The simplest way of seeing this tree is to click on the image for a full sized view. Alternatively, you can save it to your computer and open it with a graphics program that allows you to magnify the image. By this means you will be able to see the complexity of the groupings which are to be found in R1b even jut within the results for the MacGregor project. This demonstrates the incredible expansion this group experienced as it colonised the British Isles and, in fact, almost the whole of Western Europe after the Ice Age.

Chart 8 - R1b Tree Excluding Irish 1 (click to enlarge)

Group members can locate their numbers from the kit number just before the abbreviated name.

Chart 9 - R1b Tree Excluding Irish 2 (click to enlarge)

Any further clarifications or genealogical information can be sent to the project administrator, Richard McGregor, using e-mail at richardmcgregor1 AT yahoo.co.uk (substitute the word AT for the @ symbol).

Richard McGregor

January 2008

Our DNA Project in the News

2007-12-06T16:37:00.002Z

(click to enlarge)

DNA Testing Approved for CGS Membership Applications

2007-06-10T13:31:00.002+01:00

THE CLAN GREGOR SOCIETY OF SCOTLAND
Comunn Chloinn Ghriogair
Founded 1822 – Charity No. SCO 07391
Patron: Sir Malcolm MacGregor of MacGregor Bart

Press release for immediate publication
June 10h 2007

At the Council meeting held on Friday June 8th, 2007, the Clan Gregor Society of Scotland agreed that it will, from this point onwards, accept into full membership of the Society individuals with ANY surname who can show, through DNA testing, that they have a DNA signature which matches, at the accepted degrees of mutational difference, that of the main MacGregor DNA signature.

Council has taken this decision in recognition of the fact that, as a result of Clan Gregor’s past turbulent history, individuals were required to assume names which were totally divorced from their actual clan name, and although such name changes were often documented at the time, others were not. The Clan Gregor Society Council recognises that the ancestors of some MacGregors chose not to return to the original clan name for a variety of reasons, and that advances in DNA testing now allows the descendants of such individuals to be identified as belonging to the clan.

In taking this decision the Council is conscious that it is the first Clan Society to promote membership on the basis of a DNA signature and it is to be hoped that other clans will follow this lead.

Details

The Clan Gregor Society will admit to full membership of the Society anyone who can show 23 markers out of 25, or, up to 31 (but normally 33) markers out of 37 in common with the main MacGregor DNA profile which is found as kit number 2124 on the Family Tree DNA public website for the Clan Gregor Project, and additionally, where marker DYS385a normally equals 10 (ten). We take this as the modal signature. For mutations this equates to a genetic distance of up to 6 (six) on 37 markers.

The Clan Gregor Society also recognises that there is a separate Irish based DNA profile for M(a)cGregors which is distinct from the main M(a)cGregor profile, indicating a probable separate origin for the name. Council will therefore also admit to full membership on the basis of this DNA signature, again without relation to surname. The same broad restrictions apply as in the previous paragraph except that for this group the reference kit will be 4715 but with the following alterations: marker DYS464b will be considered as having a modal value of 16 and DYS460 to have a modal value of 11. For the moment the scores on CDY a and b will be discounted in determining the Irish signature and therefore the match which will be considered is up to 30 out of 35 (that is, a maximum genetic distance of 5).

We believe that DNA testing now provides an extremely reliable tool for confirming surname-based descent based on analysis of the Y chromosome.

Signed

Professor Richard McGregor
Chairman
The Clan Gregor Society of Scotland.
10th June 2007

Texts on DNA Genetics

2007-01-04T06:33:00.000Z

If you are interested in reading more about DNA, here is a list of articles and books currently available. I have added comments to help give an indication of the level of understanding required.

Articles on the Web

There are a large number of articles freely downloadable on the web, far too many to list here. For general information try the ROOTSWEB site, DNA section (use Google or your favorite search engine to search on Rootsweb DNA, or try Roper’s DNA site (search on Roper DNA) or Kevin Duerinck’s site (search on Duerinck DNA). To see if there’s any projects on names in which you are interested simply search for SURNAME [the surname you are interested in] DNA.

If you feel ready to try some of the more scientific papers, let’s say for Y chromosome, do a search for “Y chromosome DNA pdf”. To narrow your search for Y chromosome to a particular group, add that word to your search – for example “Celtic” or “Gaelic” or “Viking” (though you might get more with “Norwegian” and/or “Icelandic”). The articles you will find using this search will be in .pdf format and you will need the free Adobe Acrobat reader on your computer (many have it pre-installed but, in any case, it is freely downloadable).

Most of these articles are actual scientific papers therefore, expect technical jargon. However, the discussion sections are usually quite accessible. For a list of interesting articles relevant to DNA, have a look at www.familytreeDNA.com – there is a page on the site with useful articles.

Books

Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Genes, Peoples and Language, London, Penguin Books 2000/2001 [like it says – quite general, maybe a bit repetitive]

Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi, Alberto Piazza, The History and Geography of Human Genes, Princeton, Princeton University Press, 1994 [NB the abridged version is 411 pages long – technical and not for the faint hearted – cost about £25 paperback]

M.A. Jobling, M.E. Hurles, C. Tyler-Smith, Human Evolutionary Genetics, Abingdon: Garland Science, 2004 [an undergraduate textbook but excellent on detail, if you can cope with the science]

Martin Jones, The Molecule Hunt, London, Penguin Books 2001/2002 [excellent introduction to all things DNA]

Steve Jones, Y: The Descent of Men, London: Abacus 2002 (the same author has written Genetics for Beginners, The Language of the Genes, In the Blood, Almost like a Whale, as well as co-authoring several others) [Robin McKie in The Observer described this book as ‘…a delicious romp through the biology of the human male’!]

Steve Olsen, Mapping Human History, London, Bloomsbury 2002 [covers the same ground as Oppenheimer]

Stephen Oppenheimer, Out of Eden (The Peopling of the World), London, Constable 2003 (NB the same book has a different title in America) [Y chromosome and MtDNA: a very thorough and well presented survey but not one to start with]

Stephen Oppenheimer, The Origins of the British, London: Constable 2006

Chris Pomery, DNA and Family History, Richmond, Surrey: The National Archives, 2004 [a good starting point for learning about genealogy and DNA]

Colin Renfrew and Katie Boyle, Archaeogenetics: DNA and the population prehistory of Europe, McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, University of Cambridge 2000 (distributed by Oxbow Books, Oxford). [Variety of technical and non technical articles covering many European peoples as well as DNA aspects of plants and animals] [NB £40+]

Julian Richards, Blood of the Vikings, London, Hodder and Stoughton 2001/2002 [Y chromosome of the Vikings – but buy the paperback]

John H. Relethford, Reflections of Our Past, New York, Oxford: Westview Press 2003 [includes some discussion of other methods of analysis e.g. blood and has a section on Ireland]

Alan Savin, DNA for Family Historians, Alan Savin 2000, http://savin.org [The first author to tackle the subject of Genealogy by DNA]

Megan Smolenyak and Ann Turner, Trace Your Roots with DNA, Rodale 2004 [the authors are very experienced in the whole area and write well]

Alan Stewart, Tracing Scottish Ancestry on the Internet, Chichester: St Richard’s Press 2004 [includes a section on DNA]

Bryan Sykes (editor), The Human Inheritance, Oxford, Oxford University Press 1999 [series of articles on archaeology, language and DNA of ancient origins]

Bryan Sykes, The Seven Daughters of Eve, London, Bantam Press 2001 [MtDNA]

Bryan Sykes, Adam’s Curse, London, Bantam Press 2003 [General discussion of Y chromosome]

Bryan Sykes, Blood of the Isles, London, Bantam Press 2006 [British Y chromosome]

Spencer Wells, The Journey of Man, London, Penguin Books 2002 [Y chromosome]

Videos

If you have the Discovery Channel, watch for repeats of "The Real Eve" (for mitochondrial DNA) and "The Journey of Man" for the Y chromosome.

Where are we now? Update #7

2007-01-04T05:47:00.013Z

Interpreting the results in relation to the current state of knowledge.

(We apologise for the delay in issuing this update while we waited for a number of 67 marker results to come back from the Lab.)

During the past year, the Clan Gregor Project admitted its 200th member – a fine achievement for what is a relatively small clan. Now with 225 active participants, which makes us one of the largest clan groups, we have had a good number of citations in various journals.

What Characterises the Clan Gregor Project?

We have tried to encourage adoption of the 37 marker test for identifying closer family relationships where this would be significant. As a result, we have an impressive array of results with benefits for both participants and larger scale studies trying to help sort out the ‘history and geography’ of genetic movement.

We have encouraged some members to go further and have up to 67 markers tested. This has included what we believe to be the main MacGregor line and is beginning to help clarify the various sub families or ‘houses’ which form the MacGregor genealogy back into the Medieval period.

Some of the MacGregors have undertaken SNP testing (of which more later) in an attempt to locate the likely geographical origins of the clan group (e.g. indigenous Scottish or Dalriadic Scots).

What have we found?

In brief...

The MacGregors have predominantly one ancestor (the eponymous Gregor), but there is also a small unrelated Irish group includes Grierson and Grier, and who, it is believed, originate in the Irish kingly line of "Niall of the 9 Hostages."
The aliases of Bain and Stirling were indeed originally MacGregor in certain families, and that the names have persisted to this day instead of MacGregor. Also, that at least one Campbell family is MacGregor, one Pressly, and one McNab.

Some of the aliases – such as Grierson, Gregor, and Grier, have arisen. independently from MacGregor and in many cases the connection with the clan is by association not by blood.

There are a number of MacGregors/McGregors whose ancestors adopted the name, through, no doubt having lived in the proximity of blood-related kin. However, some of these may be the result of non-paternity events which have had the effect of changing the DNA profile.

There is a deeper ancestral connection which cannot really yet be satisfactorily explained – this group includes Magruder, Grieg, some Stirlings, some Gregorys, and possibly some McGehees. The connection here seems to be pre-surname adoption, but to lie within the period of the ‘Dark Ages’ during which clan affiliations were developing.

Why does DNA tell us this?

It has to be understood that when a male is DNA tested for genealogical purposes, the test is applied only to the Y chromosome. The Y chromosome is what makes males male. A father passes on the Y chromosome to his son and the son to his son – and so on. Anyone who descends from the same father will have the same Y chromosome. So if 400 years ago a man had 4 sons, each of those sons would receive the Y chromosome of their father and then those four sons would pass that same Y chromosome on to their (let’s say) 4 sons and then those 4 to their 4. This is assuming that 4 sons have 4 sons each (just for the sake of argument) although we know that families rarely work in such an orderly way, and also that, especially in earlier times, children did not all survive.

In this theoretical family there are:
Within a century, in this model, there would be 86 males all having the same Y chromosome DNA – except for small ‘copying’ errors which happen from time to time – these ‘copying’ errors being known as mutations. All these children should carry the same surname, unless they have been forced to adopt another surname as an alias, as happened to the MacGregors.

Women do not receive the Y chromosome and therefore, have to find a male with the surname MacGregor or one of the related names to do the DNA test on their behalf.

Women DO have DNA which can be tested. This is Mitochondrial DNA (MtDNA) which they got from their mother and which they passed on to all their children (including males) but males are unable to pass it on.

The update prior to this one explains what is revealed for each of the surnames found in the project, so it will not be repeated here. However, since then a number of individuals have had their DNA tested for 30 more markers. Most people in the group have had 25 or 37 markers tested but there are individuals who have had 67 markers tested, so a comment is needed about what has been found. The actual number scores can be found on the “Y Results” tab at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MacGregor.

Chart 1 shows the current level of results. Most of the results belong to the R1b haplogroup – the haplogroup associated with the repopulation of Europe after the ice age (see Oppenheimer 2006), and the most common of haplogroups in northern Europe – as is reflected in the Clan Gregor Project. The two other groups often found are firstly Haplogroup I which is generally interpreted as Viking (only two 67 results so far – McWhannell and Greer – but the group is well represented in the Clan Gregor project being easily distinguished by the markers scores 8,9,8 on the 14, 15th and 16th markers). Secondly, we find R1a which originated in the Caucuses, but in the Clan Gregor project only the Orrs have so far fallen into that group.

Chart 1 - R1b Haplogroup (click to enlarge)

Although all the participants in the R1b group are ultimately related (i.e. thousands of years ago in some cases), only those contained within the group which circles round 2124 MacGregor (probably including 12436 and 28296 but possibly not 46397 McWhannell) come, we believe from ‘Gregor.’ The DNA profiles, and thus the chart, suggest that those who have tested for 67 markers belong broadly to the same family group of MacGregors, though because of their mutations, separation of the family units may date from the time of the proscription, and possibly not earlier in some cases. Although the Gregorys in this chart are all related to each other, they are only distantly related to the MacGregors, almost certainly NOT in the period of surnames (that from the 14th century) but not too distantly; which throws up an interesting possibility of a more ancient origin for the ‘Gregor’ name. Gregor means "shepherd" and could literally be a "shepherd of sheep," but also, in the Biblical sense, "a shepherd" (as in Pope Gregory). The McGehees belong to a similar outlying group, not related from the 14th century, but closer in time that all the others shown in the upper part of the chart. Again, notice the aliases – there is clearly a MacGregor who became a McNab and one who became a Stirling.

With the small number of 67 results, we are not showing members of the same family group as we do for the Gregorys. We would have expected more grouping round 2125, if, as believed, this is a Roro branch. It is likely that these groupings will develop as more 67 results are inputted. All the members of the R1b group at the top of the chart are unrelated to each other in the shorter time frame of surnames. We only have one 67 result for Orr – which is in haplogroup R1a – if this group all did 67 we would expect them to group together in a star shape like the main MacGregors showing family relatedness. The two members of the Viking group I are actually probably related to each other within a shorter time frame – possibly dating from 2000-1500 years ago.

We are hoping that scientific estimates on 67 markers will eventually enable us to be somewhat more specific as to date of separation but this refinement is not currently available since it requires a large group of 67 results allied to known genealogies to make the time estimate more reliable. We would expect to have more information on that in due course from FtDNA.

Chart 2 is not generated by the Clan Gregor Project, but is the current version of the R1b portion of the world haplogroups chart.

We have worked with a company called Ethnoancestry to see if it might be possible to identify, more exactly, the geographical origin of the Clan Gregor DNA line working with SNPs (short tandem repeats).

I am grateful to Bonnie Shrack for clarification of the difference between haplotype and haplogroup – and the significance of SNPs in the research. I include part of her e-mail to me on the subject to help understanding:

...There are two completely different things, defining haplogroups, and describing haplotypes. The haplotypes are made up of different series of Short Tandem Repeats, listed by the DYS number of the site where the repeat occurs – as seen in, for example, your test scores from FtDNA. But they never, ever, have defined haplogroups.

What happens is that scientists try to correlate the various haplotypes with haplogroups: we, all of us, are trying to figure out what haplogroup a particular haplotype probably belongs in. But having a certain haplotype can never guarantee a certain haplogroup. There are only correlations and probabilities.

[Since Bonnie wrote this to me, several companies now are able to confirm haplogroup, including FtDNA who show a confirmed haplogroup in green on their results chart.]

That's because Short Tandem Repeats, useful as they are for short-term genealogy, are not at all the thing to define a haplogroup, which is used instead for long-term questions: the migrations of ancient populations in human prehistory, thousands of years ago. So they are defined by something else – Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs), and other similar kinds of mutations, all of which come into the category of Unique Event Polymorphisms (UEPs). These kinds of mutations are very rare, and we presume that once they have happened, they are never reversed.

At the moment, it has only been possible to confirm M269 on the chart for MacGregor – any mutation ‘downstream’ of that which ‘characterises’ MacGregors has not yet been found. However, the group which includes some Irish McGregors and others – those who are said to descent form Niall of the 9 Hostages – have been identified as lying in the subgroup M222, which is believed to be indigenous Irish, dating from the time when Ireland was first colonised, after the retreat of the ice (see Oppenheimer 2006).

Chart 2 - World Haplogroups Chart: R1b (click to enlarge)

If you are interested in further information, please go to http://www.familytreedna.com/ where there is a great deal of information about DNA and Genealogy. Instant updates – allied in many cases to information about the earliest ancestor of the participant will be found at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/MacGregor where there is also a map of the earliest known ancestor for most participants. Please wait for this to load as there is rather a lot of information because the Clan Gregor project is so big.

The summary of the Clan Gregor Project, given the update previous to this one, still represents an accurate picture of what we know for each of the family groups identified.

Where are we now? Update #6

2005-09-04T04:55:00.003+01:00

Background to the Update

This update has been done as the number of participants in the Clan Gregor DNA Project approaches 150. We have benefited form a change in Family Tree DNA’s group structuring arrangements whereby some members of the separate Gregory, Grier, and Stirling Projects have decided to have their results also shown on the Clan Gregor Project pages. We welcome these individuals and some of their earliest ancestry statements will appear in this report and in due course.

As a result of the larger numbers involved in the project now, I have decided to try to make sense of the various groupings which seem to be developing, and to, at least confront some of the anomalies which seem to be emerging.

This update uses the arrangement of results presented in Table 1 below. It is suggested that the easiest way to follow this is to actually print out Table 1 (in colour if possible) and refer to it directly when reading the following discussion.

The Table has been colour coded. The colours in themselves have no significance but they are used to separate different family groups – sometimes these are quite small, single surname groups, or for larger grouping of different surnames which have some elements in common. Participants’ results are uniformly referred to by their kit number.

Table 1 - Marker Comparison (click to enlarge)

Haplogroup Q

At the beginning of the chart, we have one Bennett (15716). This DNA signature is normally associated with Native Americans (originating in East Asia) but a comment from Dr David Faux of Ethnoancestry is significant here. He says: 'I was given access to the skeleton findings of a Shetland database a while back and was astounded to learn that 8% of the sample were typed at haplogroup Q - the same percentage as haplogroup I. My first "Q" emerged recently in a participant with a patronymic surname...Clearly the distribution pattern points to a Norwegian source dating back to Viking times.'

Eastern European Connection

McGregor (5356) and the two brothers (7422 and 9338) belong to a DNA haplotype J2 that is found in Britain, but rarely. It is most common in Eastern European countries, leading to speculation that it is either from gypsy background or, possibly, from Eastern European soldiers stationed in Britain during the Roman occupation in the first three centuries AD. These two (or rather three) MacGregor results are more than likely too distant from each other to be from the same individual within the historic period. MacGregor (Horn (19304) is probably also part of this group but the DNA profile could also be I1b (which is possibly Scandinavian in origin). Only a haplogroup test would confirm this. Bennett N6998 is also almost certainly in the J haplogroup since the DNA signature is like kits 7422 and 9338 who have confirmed their haplogroup as J2.

The Irish/Scottish Viking Group

The group Magee (208290) to Nevins (2314) are quite closely related and are all from haplogroup I, the Viking haplogroup, specifically Norwegian (from the occurrence of the specific numbers). It is possible that these are descendants of the Viking kin group which settled in the Northwest Scotland/Isle of Man/East Ireland after the Viking invasions of the 9th century AD. Although the common ancestor of these individuals may be some time back, possibly two millennia – there is no question that the kin group was a very tight one – being all descended from a single individual and probably aware of their connections.

The Grier/Greer subgroup (shaded in green) almost certainly represent descent from one individual of that name, with the possible exception of Greer 17630 who probably has too many DNA mutations (21 out of 25) to make him related directly to this group within the time of the adoption of surnames. To be definite about this, it would be necessary to see 37 marker results from this whole group. However, it is striking that an individual can have so many mutations more than others yet still be part of the surname group, derived from the common Viking ancestor. As we will see later with the Stirlings, this cannot easily be explained, except possibly through geographic proximity at the time of adoption of surnames.

All those who have tested hereafter up to (but not including) Orr in Table 1 are from the haplogroup R1b – perhaps THE most frequently found male haplogroup in Europe. It is common across Spain, France, Germany, the Low Countries, Britain, and Ireland and, as I have written before, represents spread out after the last Ice Age but all having a common ancestor who lived 20 to 30 thousand years ago.

Other MacGregor Lines: Back to Those Named MacGregor

Kits 24470 and 11773 could well be related. Kit 17790 might belong to this group.
These 3 are in yellow.

Kits 20123 and 1774 are related: this is almost certainly the Glengyle family. Denoted by blue.

Kits 13429 to 22187 might well be related to each other more recently (by which I mean from 1603 to 1850). This is hard to prove without a better paper trail. This group is in green.

Kit 4714 seems to be currently an isolated result and therefore connected more distantly in time (in the 15th century for example). This entry is white.

Kits 3346 to 10454 seem to be very closely related, sharing the same DNA sequences for the most part with the Chief’s line. If these individual are not just examples of very ‘stable’ DNA then they must be related more closely to the Chief’s line and to each other. This group is given in light yellow.

Kit 13165 may go with the above group or the ‘original’ Stirling group.

Kits 12511 and 24029 may be related more directly to each other or they may be separate family groups. These two are in darker yellow.

Kits 12596 to 26174 (in orange) appear to share common characteristics which may indicate family connections.

Kits 12436 and 17711 (given in puce) are not directly related to each other but seem to be a wider and more ancient connection to the MacGregor group as discussed in the update before this one.

This brings me on to those individuals in group R1b who are not immediately connected to the ‘original’ MacGregor line.

Part-takers/Those with Similar DNA

Turk
The Turks (kits 11655 and 21757) are related to each other and have a resemblance to the MacGregor line. They are traditionally called after Brig o’ Turk in Perthshire where there has been a strong MacGregor presence for many centuries and where the Glengyle family had land at one time. The DNA suggests that the family origin story may indeed be accurate.

Greer2
The Greers 10589 and 35624 are related to each other almost certainly but not to the earlier Greer group. These could be descendants of Grierson of Lag in Dumfriesshire as suggested by the family genealogies.

Grigor?
The MacGregor/McGregor group from 2726 to 27811 have many general DNA matches with other surnames, but, are almost certainly from the same family. From paper evidence this would be a family using the surname Grigor and living in the vicinity of Perth in the 17th and 18th centuries. This group are coloured dark blue. Two of this group are known cousins.

The next group of MacGregors/Greig/Gregg/McGhee are not related to each other and represent single families who have either adopted the name MacGregor or use the version now found. They share a common ancestor with the MacGregor line but before the development of surnames though there is still the possibility that the connection goes back only as far as the time of Kenneth MacAlpine.

McAdams/Gregory/McGregor
Of the remaining results in this section McAdams 3133 and 9567 appear to be related; Gregorys 25690 and 36102 likewise; McGregor 29834 and 36394 are potentially related, and 7783 may be part of this group.

Grierson/Gregg/Grieg/MacGregor
The next group – from Grierson 7874 to Gregg 20673 have very close genetic similarities, which, from the paper trails, suggest a possible recent Irish origin and descent from a common ancestor pre surnames. The two Griersons 7874 and 33323 are almost certainly directly related post surname adoption. The same is true for Mc/MacGregors 4715, 2944, 17929 – a suggestion here of a second, smaller and more recent MacGregor surname origin which could bring in the Griersons too may give at least one reason for the persistent story of connection between Grierson and MacGregor.

McAdams
The fours McAdams 16568 to 11256 are likewise probably similarly related to each other in recent time

MacGregor 36727 and Gregg 20673 seem to be separate families though tied into the overall high level of connectedness pre surnames.

Foxton
Finally in the R1b sections there is the Foxtons who are not related to anyone else but ARE related to each other. These are given in yellow.

Orr
A new grouping, coloured in green, is the Orr family. I have mentioned these before in previous updates. Their haplogroup is not R1b but R1a , they are all related and have identified an Irish origin for the extended family. By the way, Orr 16713 is not of this family group unless there was an adoption or illegitimacy in that family.

McAdams
Next we come to the two McAdams 3714 and 5223. These have identified a common ancestor but their actual DNA origin is from the comparatively rare haplogroup E3b suggesting an Eastern European or middle eastern origin. These families could descend from Roman auxiliaries or Neolithic farmers who had come into Britain.

Older Viking
The final group from Mitchell 36808 to MacGregor 31436 are not related to the main MacGregor lines or indeed any of the others so far mentioned, expect that they have an ‘older’ form of the DNA sequence associated with Haplotype I – the Viking group – but suggestive of a different settlement pattern than that of the Irish/NW Scotland group. Possibly the ancestors of these came into Eastern England/Scotland from different Norwegian origins than the earlier group.

Chart A - DNA linkages (click to enlarge)

Chart A above shows DNA linkages based on distance from each other. It is interesting to see which names group together. The bunching of Stirling is particularly significant showing a common time depth for origins. For the main line MacGregor, only the chiefly line (2124) is given.

[McGre(g) is short for MacGregor, Stir for Stirling and Dougal for MacDougall of the Isles, McPet for McPeters, Grego for Gregory]

Earliest known ancestor detail for the new Stirling Group

13635 - Feltus Barrow Stirling, Jr., earliest known ancestor Andrew Skirling, b. Kinnettles, ca 1714, married Jean Nevay ca 1735, d. Nov. 1780, interred Kirkton of Kinnettles. Descended through Andrew's son Alexander Stirling (bapt. 07 Jul 1751, Kinnettles), who emigrated prior to the American Revolution and eventually settled at West Feliciana Parish, Louisiana.

16710 - Wayne L. Stirling, earliest known ancestor John Skirling, b. ca 1730, probably in Barry, Scotland, died aft. 1784, Barry or Panbride, Scotland. Descended through John Skirling's grandson, James (bapt. 17 Jul 1792, Panbride) who emigrated in to Upper Canada 1840 with his wife, Elizabeth Lawrence, and their children, Three of his brothers (George, Alexander and William), their wives and children emigrated at the same time.

13678 - John Anderson Stirling, earliest known ancestor David Skirling, b. ca 1745, married Janet Wallace 01 Aug 1773, Dunnichen, d. 15 Mar 1798, Dunnichen. Family still living in Scotland, though branches did emigrate to New Zealand and the United States.

23501 - William Stewart Stirling, earliest known ancestor James Stirling (or Skirling), b. ca 1740, married 26 Dec. 1773, Kinnettles, Margaret Whyte of Kinnettles, he was from Inverarity, d. before 1858. Family still living in Scotland, with some branches in the United States.

A Brief Discussion of the New Charts

Note: The 25 marker charts (1 through 3) have all the results to date for writing (early August 2005). However some recently reported 37 upgrades have not yet been included in the 37 marker charts. These will appear in the 37 diagrams for the next update. It is necessary to fix a cut off point for updates or else they would never get done with the constant influx of results coming in.

Table 2 lists all the 25 marker results I have in my hands to date except that where there are individuals sharing results (either exactly, or with very few mutations) I have grouped these all together into one ‘super result’ (for example 29MacG2124 – is 29 MacGregor results together within kit 2124 with mutations discounted).

Table 2 -25 Marker Results (click to enlarge)

This is to allow participants who do not fit into these ‘super groups’ to see where they lie. Thus Charts 1 and 2 are not specifically intended for members of the ‘supergroups’ but for the others. Most of these ‘supergroups’ have 37 marker results and therefore appear in the later charts (3, 4, and 5).

Chart 2 fits onto the bottom of Chart 1. Chart 1 is the diagrammatic representation of the haplogroup R1b for members of the project. Most project members belong to this haplogroup. Note also the haplogroup E3b. This is a quite separate haplogroup distant from R1b – on the chart the connecting line from R1b has been foreshortened for space purposes making it look as if there is a shorter time distance between them.

Note: In Charts 1 and 2, kits are identified by 3 letters of the surname and last three letters of the kit. The program only allows 6 letter identifiers. Usually, I will use the whole kit number.

Chart 1 - Haplogroup R1b (click to enlarge)

Chart 2 shows members of the haplogroup R1a (always Orr) and haplogroup I – there are two branches of this haplogroup. The branch leading to Nevin, etc., is the ‘younger’ branch in Britain – supposed to be associated with the Viking invaders of the 9th century (to Ireland and the Western Isles).

Chart 2 - Haplogroups R1a and I (click to enlarge)

Chart 3 shows all the 37 marker results from the MacGregor project excluding those who match the bloodline and are called MacGregor. All these are ‘within’ the red star labelled 2124. What is remarkable is how dense the next layer out is called Stirling. Although Stirling was a known alias, I cannot currently explain the DNA similarity with the MacGregor line in so many cases.

Chart 3 - 37 Marker Results: Excluding MacGregors (click to enlarge)

Chart 4, also 37 markers, is the full set of 37 results (but note that the computer programme only shows kit 2124 where the DNA match is exact - thus 2909, for example, matches 2124 exactly, so 2909 does not appear independently). The clustering effect of the MacGregor bloodline results (in a star-like pattern) is normal for strongly related results. The lower kits are named because they did not fit, for the most part, into Chart 3. The Gregory (?) is my indication that I am not sure why the program chose to place these results with effectively the Viking Group when the results themselves suggest membership of the R1b haplogroup.

Chart 4 - 37 Markers: Full Set (click to enlarge)

Chart 5 gives a labelled version of, primarily, the MacGregor main group. Again, exact matches are taken into the red circle for 2124. The circles SCO can be ignored . They refer to the process of contracting the connections between different results to avoid large numbers of lines on the page.

Chart 5 - MacGregor Main Group (click to enlarge)

Submitted Genealogies

2005-02-03T21:05:00.008Z

Below are the known genealogies of the 37 marker participants. There are some interesting PLACE tie ups which currently do not correspond with DNA, but of course a place can have different branches of the 'family' in it - as we showed in the 1787 children list for Balquhidder parish, printed in the CGS Newsletter 50. Further comment appreciated!

Brief notes on the earliest known ancestry of DNA participants: if there is no information listed, then I have not been given it at this point.

The order follows the updating chart which is the Family Tree DNA public web site for the MacGregor project. Unless otherwise stated, all places referred to specifically in the text are in Scotland.

Kit No:

5356 descends from Alexander McGregor born 1818 Pennsylvania

19304 from Daniel McGregor born 1819, married Elizabeth MacLachlan and connected to Kilmun parish, Argyllshire (family emigrated to the US).

12189 is believed to descend from William Lowrie whose supposed son William married Isobel Craig in 1680 in Banff parish, (Scotland).

24029 descends John McGregor, born 1766, died Nov 1847; and his wife Anne Lang, born 6 May 1766, died 22 Jan 1840. Their youngest son Alexander, born 9 April 1805 was my immigrant ancestor who came first to Ontario in 1842, later to USA. The earliest information about John McGregor came from a letter written by his grand daughter Eliza McGregor McKenzie in 1931 and later published in American Clan Gregor Society’s 1932 Yearbook: ‘My grandfather on my father’s side was John MacGregor, who was born in Scotland in 1766. On June 1, 1788, he married Anne Lang. Eight children were born to them: John bo. 1790 James. bo. 1792, Robert bo. 1794 (died when a baby), Robert 2nd bo. 1796, Mary bo. 1798, Jessie bo1800, Annie bo1802, Alexander bo. April 9, 1805, at Renton, Scotland

7587 and 7183 descend from James MacGregor who married Maria Scott (possibly in 1853 at Wakefield) and emigrated to the US, and believed to descend from John (Mc)Gregor and Ann Dunn in Bankfoot Auchtergaven (son James who married Grizal or Grace Davidson).

15199 descends from Gregor MacGregor born c1770 at Auchmore in Fortingall parish. The family emigrated to Canada and the US.

1961 descends from Richard Gregory about 1580 from London8100 descends from James Gregory born c1700 in Scotland Note these two individuals are almost certainly related – both families are now in the US.

8339 descends from Alexander Greer bo. 1780 North Carolina (and may descend from James Grier bo. 1708 Co Antrim Northern Ireland).

10897 descends from Alexander MacGregor who married Margaret MacFarlane in 1847 in the Gorbals, Glasgow. Members of this family are now in France. This is almost certainly a Glencarnoch family (i.e. of the Chief’s line).

10454 descends from Donald Roy MacGregor (married to Margaret MacGregor) who lived in Rannoch in the early nineteenth century. This family is now in the US.

22187 is believed to descend from Patrick McGregor or Stirling born c1700, married Janet Fergusone: variously in Balquhidder/Callander/Kilmadock parishes. This family is now in England.

12511 descends from John MacGregor born 1827 in Scotland, emigrated in 1852 to the US (New York).

25633 descends from William McGregor who was a weaver/tailor in Glasgow, known as William The Weaver bo1791 in Perthshire, Scotland and d. 1871 in Peterboro, Ontario, Canada. Married 3 August, 1817 in Campsie, Stirling, Scotland Margaret Elizabeth [?] Taylor bo. 24 May, 1790 in Campsie, Stirling, Scotland d. 1892 in Peterboro, Ontario, Canada. They had four [4] sons and one [1] daughter. The sons were all apprenticed to a brother in Glasgow to serve as coopers. In the late 1800's the family emigrated to Peterboro, Ontario, Canada. William continued as a weaver/tailor but the sons all became farmers and emigrated from Canada to the United States.

16858 descends from Malcolm McGregor born c1812 in Fortingall, he married Catherine Kennedy in Clunie parish and the family emigrated to the US.

1774 is descended from the MacGregors of Glengyle (not Rob Roy’s branch). This family is now in the US.

18760 is descended from Peter McGregor from Fowlis Wester (born c 1800) who married Elizabeth Muller or Miller and the family subsequently emigrated to the US.

20123 descends from Angus MacGregor born c1850 in Fort William. This family subsequently emigrated to the US.

24470 descends from James MacGregor bo. about 1760 in Muthill parish m. Katherine McNabb of Callander Parish July 2nd 1793 Children 1) Margaret bo. about 1795 m. Capt Donald Fraser - 1816 in Montreal, Canada; 2) Edward bo. ? in war of 1812 - 14. battle of Lundys Lane death ??; 3) Duncan b. 1800 d. 1884 at Fournier, Ontario. The family emigrated to Canada in 1800 to the Toronto area and owned 400 acres at Markham. They moved in 1823 to Glengarry area, reason unknown. Duncan m. Catherine Fraser from Glengarry cty, of Glen Roy.

2124 is descended from the MacGregors of Glencarnoch (Chief’s line).

2909 is descended from possibly Peter/Patrick (son Hugh Evan) who were from the late nineteenth century resident in Jamaica.

3346 descends from James born 1760 in Weem parish and married at Jean Stewart in 1782 at Dull parish. This family still lives in Scotland.

4714 this family is believed to descend from Duncan McGregor in Fortingall parish married to Chirsty Cameron in the late 18th century. This family now lives in England.

9290 this MacGregor family using the alias Stirling descends from Robert Stirling born 1668 at Gateside of Glassingall, Dunblane parish to William Stirling (?d1688). Robert died in 1747. The family now lives in New Zealnd with branches still in Scotland.

13429 descends from John McGregor 1828-1895 born Balnaguard, Dull parish. The family still lives in Scotland.

2125 is believed to descend from Patrick Malloch or MacGregor who had a son John in Kenmore parish in 1729. This family is now in the US.

12596 is descended from John McGregor born 1807 in Paisley, Renfrewshire (to parents John McGregor and Ann Watson), died 1871. This family is still in Scotland.

17990 descends from Alexander McGregor who married Janet McGregor. They came from Lochearnside and moved in the early 18th century to Drummond Moss in central Scotland which was being drained at the time. This family is now in North America.

16798 is descended from John McGregor who married Ann Stobie in Monzie in (1826). (John was the son of John Row? McGregor and Mary McDonald). This family is now in Australia.

13621 a Stirling MacGregor shares the same ancestor as 38027 and 9290 above. Some of this family are in Scotland, others branches in Australia.

Further notes on the Stirlings:
This McGregor family using the alias Stirling descends from Robert Stirling in Gateside of Glassingall parish of Dunblane. Robert's occupation bet 1693-1647 was as farmer in Gateside of Glassingall. He Died 22 May 1747 at Gateside of Glassingall, buried 24 May 1747 Dunblane Cathedral Churchyard in the Stirling lairs which are now under grass.

Robert was an Elder and Treasurer of Dunblane Kirk, his son John was also Treasurer of the same Kirk.

Kits 13621, 38027, and 9290 have the same ancestor; 13621 and 38027 descend from James, where as kit 9290 descends from Henry last child of Robert.

Miltary Service. Robert's son James fought on the Jacobite side at Sheriffmuir the ancestor of 13621, 38027. James was in the Duke of Perth's men who failed to charged, so he charged with Alexander Drummond of Balhaldie (MacGregor} his relative, with the MacGregors, James was also at the battle of Prestopans in the 1745s.

10589 descends from Nathaniel Hunt Greer born 1802 d1855 (?descended from Thomas Grier d. Pennsylvania 1790).

2726 is descended from Alexander MacGregor who fought in the Revolutionary Wars in the US.

27811 descends from James Grigor born in 1771: his parents may have been John Grigor and Janet Duff of Monidie, but it is difficult to connect, with certainty, from one generation to the next in the old parish registers. In 1804 James married Rebecca Richardson in the neighbouring parish of Redgorton. They had 5 children: John (1805), Isabell or Bell (1807), Jannet (1811), Gregor (1814) and Joseph (1818) all baptised in Monidie. James died in 1818 before the birth of Joseph. In 1839 Gregor married Jane Young in Auchtergaven. For most of his life, Gregor McGregor was gamekeeper at Dunkeld for the Duke and Duchess of Athol. At first the family lived in Dunkeld in a cottage called Tully Mully.

[Comment: the DNA correspondence between 27811 and 2726 suggests that they share a common ancestor, presumably the father of Alexander MacGregor ancestor of 2726 or one of his immediate ancestors].

28296's earliest known ancestor is William McGregor, who married Catherine McLaren in 1782 in Callander parish, and lived in Duncraggan. His great grandson, Duncan, immigrated to Sydney, Australia in 1887. It is believed that William was born William McComas in 1755 in Duncraggan, the son of Donald McComas and Janet Ferguson, who were married in Callander parish in 1744. Donald may possibly be the son of Thomas McComas and Marion McNie, born in 1719 in Duncraggan.

9690 descends from Thomas Greig 1753-1833 Aberdeenshire (Rathen parish). This family is now in the US.

17711 is descended from John MacGregor (bo. 1825) at Milnathort, Kinross and he married Johanna Susan Healey from near Dublin Ireland - all his biological children were from her. His second wife was Susanna Nauffts of Halifax, Nova Scotia John was son of Mary MacGregor (and ?Duncan, a carter). This family is now mainly in Canada.

2363 and 4151 descend from John Callum married 1735 to Christian Harriwood in Keith Banffshire. The family (re)adopted the name McGregor in1778. This family now lives in England.

19870 descends from William McGhee 1839-1916 Philadelphia County US.

20630 descends from David Alexander Macgregor, born in Scotland in 1852 from Edinburgh via Carlisle with his father, James Ross Macgregor in 1854 The father, an engraver and experienced book binder, tried to expand his business in the US by engraving Christmas cards. James' father, David, was an Edinburgh artist whose paintings of ships hang in several museums including the art museum in Edinburgh. David's (James' father) wife was apparently a Mackenzie, the neice of Captain Donald Mackenzie, the celebrated soldier from the Crimean War and the Sepoy Rebellion.

14973 descends from George Gregg 1740-c1786 Scotland. This family is now in the US.

6376 descends from William Dowie born 1776 in Newburgh Fife (married Mary Smith). This family lives in England.

3133, 9567, and 12683 are probably descended from the same individual. It is said that 3 brothers went to America about 1740 and lost track of each other. Tradition says they were military members of the Scottish ‘Black Watch’ regiment sent to the Orangethroup Colony in Georgia, or they came to the US from Ireland. Earliest known ancestor of 9567 and 12683 was Thomas McAdam born c1735 and lived in Washington Co. Tennessee, US and earliest known ancestor of 3133 is James McAdam born 1748 in Virginia, USA, but this family went there from Washington County. Member 23214 of the McAdams project is probably of this family.

7874 is descended from John Grier born Parton Dumfries 1714. This family currently lives in Australia.

7783 descends from Andrew McGregor (c1840 Fossoway-1903, married to Helen Taylor in 1861) the son of John McGregor (a cellarman) and Mary Whyte. This family now lives in England. NB this is not believed to be the same family as kit 17711, although the similarity of name and place is striking.

6979 is descended from Thomas Gregg c1805-1871 Co Tipperary, Ireland. This family is now in the US.

13403 descends from John McGregor born 1759 in the Highlands -c1823 (and married to Mary McMillan) who became a soldier and went to Canada where the family still lives.

8857 is descended from a McAdams ancestor who emigrated to Texas from Armagh Ireland c1779. This individual and members 20224 and 21318 of the McAdams project appear to come from the same family group.

5276 is descended from John McAdams born c1735 and married Sarah Sloss in 1754 in Pennsylvania, US.

4715 is descended from Patrick McGregor born 1768/69 in Ireland, died 1841at Mains Dundee (through son Francis). This family has remained in Scotland.

11255 and 11256 are descended from Robert McAdams who went to the US in 1774 – the documentation suggests that the family descend from the Craigengillan McAdams family of S.W. Scotland. 16568 is probably related to this family through another branch who came to Orange Co. from Lunenburg Co. (in the U.S.) in the 1770s. Also related to this family group are 20244, 20245 and 20225 in the McAdams project.

3714 and 5223 descend from Thomas McAdams born before 1737 (d..c1766) in County Down, Ireland – the family emigrated first to Charleston, US in 1767.

All the Orrs so far tested, with one in Ireland, appear to originate from the family of that name in Co. Donegal, Ireland.

23729 descends from John Orr (b.1805 Donaghadee, County Down, N Ireland) and Eliza Nevin. John Orr and Eliza Nevin are likely descendants of Ulster Plantation settlers. The earliest reference found of Orrs living in County Down, N Ireland, was 1626. Almost all of the early settlers were from Ayrshire, Scotland.

Where are we now? Update #5

2005-02-03T18:07:00.007Z

This update concentrates exclusively on the 37 marker test results. The purpose is to show what we think we have learned so far about the genealogical connections which have been suggested by the results. The problem with mutations, as I have said elsewhere, is that they are, by and large, random but seem to stay constant within families. So if individuals with the same surname compare results it should be possible to observe groupings, particularly if the surname group comes from a small geographical area. The table of all the 37 results is given below.

Table 1 - 37 Marker Comparison (click to enlarge)

In this order, as given by Family Tree DNA in the table of results (at www.familytreedna.com/MacGregor/public), those who are closest to each other in genetic terms are grouped together – most of the time. However, if there is a more unusual mutation, such as on the second marker where 24 for example becomes 23, then that person will appear to be quite distant from the larger group, since the 23 conditions position in the table. This is what has happened to kit 24029 in the MacGregor group and also 17041 in the Orr group. Both these individuals are clearly attached to their main surname groups as will be seen in the next charts and diagrams.

In this update I have included, for the first time, an indication of the earliest known ancestor for each of the group members and this will be found at the end of this report. I am satisfied that this does not compromise anyone’s privacy since it is not possible to work out who each testee is unless he (or she) chooses to make him/herself known.

The next table (Table 2) has been generated by an excellent online program created by Dean McGee with whom I have had correspondence, because there is a supposed link between McGehee and MacGregor (as yet unproved by DNA). This program uses the data provided by Family Tree DNA on mutation rates and calculates the time, in years, to the common ancestor. In this table I have only included DNA results which might be directly related by common MacGregor ancestor. The line in bold (on kit 2124) is the Glencarnoch MacGregor line (as of the present chiefs). I have used a 75% probability of relationship based on a generation length of 33 years. These are rather larger figures than other groups use but I have based it on known timeframes. So for example we know that the Stirlings [kit 9290] could have split off from the main line no later than 1680, and the Glengyle branch must be before c1500 [kit 1774].

Table 2 - McGehee/MacGregor Relationship (click to enlarge)

These figures should not be taken as implying definite dates since, as I have said often, mutations happen unpredictably and possibly according to changes in circumstances in ways we don’t fully understand yet. It has been suggested for example that the DNA of emigrant families is likely to show more mutations than those who remained in the home country. I have no idea if there is any scientific basis to this statement at all but if it IS correct, then the time frame to nearest common ancestor would be shorter.

These charts were constructed using the computer program created by Fluxus Engineering. As I often say we must remember that is just one interpretation of the data by a computer program so, as always, the results can be interpreted in different ways. To counteract this I also give some other similar charts which suggest some slightly different interpretations of some of the data. By the way, the 'mv' points mentioned in the following discussion are essentially points where the DNA divides to go different ways. They can be thought of as points where two brothers diverged, although this is not strictly accurate (but possible).

Chart 1 is 'rooted' in the ancestral DNA sequence associated with the hunter gatherers moving north and west to the Atlantic fringes, following the retreating ice – Spain, Basque country, Brittany, Ireland and Great Britain. This is called the Atlantic Modal Haplotype and is the most common DNA grouping in those countries. In the chart it is called ATLANT. Over time, two markers in the MacGregor group changed from having 11 repeats in the DNA sequence to having 10. These were marker 391 and 385a. On Chart 1 below, this point is labelled ‘Point of Common 10 10 Ancestor’. Individuals to the left of this are almost certainly descended from John Cam d..1390, son of Gregor, name father of the clan, or from his children.

Chart 1 - Atlantic Modal Haplotype (click to enlarge)

The grouping of the entries on the chart suggests that there was a split of ancestral lines at the point labelled mv41. Since we know that kit 2124 is the line which includes Glencarnoch, and kit 1774 is Glengyle, this is consistent with a very early ancestral split, as the genealogies suggest. We can be fairly confident that kit 20123 is a Glengyle. The earliest known ancestor of 20123 lived in Kilmallie parish, Argyllshire, where there is now the intriguing possibility that the story of a grandson of Rob Roy being settled there is therefore correct, if this is the same family.
The next split occurs with kit 2125 and the testee here believes, but cannot prove, Roro family descent. IF this tree is correct and if 2125 is Roro then it would follow that all others after this would also be Roro. This is a very attractive idea but as I will show depends on 2125 being where it is, and this might not be correct.

There may be a problem with the position of kit 4714 if their family belief in Roro descent is true. However since neither 2125 nor 4714 know for sure we need a testee to come forward who has definite documentary evidence for Roro connection in order to help verify this.

There can be no doubt that kits 2909, 10897, and 16858 are either related to the Glencarnoch line directly ,or, share a more recent common ancestor with that line. Again a direct connection between kit 3346 and Glencarnoch is suggested by this chart. However, as you will see, other charts make this a slightly more distant relationship. Nevertheless a connection between the Macgregor line found in Weem parish in the late 18th century and the Stirlings who found their way to Dunblane by at least the 1670s, appears possible.

An intriguing possibility is suggested at mv11 - that there was an earlier Gregor split which gave some Macgregors and some Greigs their connection, perhaps in the the 11th or 12th centuries. Then the split at mv5 could be where various clans have their joint kingly origins. This is very much speculation, BUT, the genetics does indicate common ancestries between clans - but the linking dates are not clear.

Chart 2 - Atlantic Modal Haplotype: Another View (click to enlarge)

So much for Chart 1. Chart 2 looks a little different. The Glengyle branch is omitted as well as all more distant MacGregor lines. The joining of tree lines in this chart suggests that there might have been an older split before that of Glencarnoch, and that the oldest MacGregor line here is preserved in the DNA of kit 4714 , with another older split at mv2 leading to kits 10897, 3346, the Stirlings (9290 + 13621), and 24029. As I said earlier, it's not possible yet to say for sure which interpretation is correct.

Another significant difference in Chart 2 lies with 2125 which here comes out as a branch line, not a main trunk. Nevertheless if 2125 is Roro then so must all others after mv10 be also, except for possibly 13429 and 18760. It then follows from this chart, that Glengyle is a Roro offshoot. Clan historians think this is rather unlikely. Charts 1 and 2 imply that BOTH 2125 AND 4714 cannot be Roro as the genetic distance is too great.

Charts 1 and 2 were prepared by Neil McGregor a project member in Australia. Chart 3 has been prepared by me. I have included a number of other 37 results for comparison.
Chart 3 is an 'unrooted' (see note) chart containing only group results. Again notice the nearness of the supposed Roro 2125 to Glengyle 1774.

Chart 3 - Unrooted Group Results (click to enlarge)

An intriguing link, which is probably a 'red herring,' is the line connecting Glengyle, whose patronymic was McCoulkeir, that is 'son of Dougal ciar' and our Macdougall testee 21971. Apart from this the same basic groups are maintained as in Neil's charts. The earlier Macgregor split - above 4714 - is doubled in size (that is, includes twice as many people, but time distances, roughly represented by length of line, are rather longer.

With the results currently available we can probably group together the following results: 3346 with the Stirling results - these lines may connect with Glencarnoch but we cannot be certain yet; 1774 and 20123 are almost certainly Glengyle; 2124, 2909, and 10897 appear to be Glencarnock - either that or 2909 and 10897 have very stable DNA! Roro is hardest to explain. If 2125 IS Roro then so should 18760, 22187, 16798, 12596, and 22187 be, BUT if 4714 is Roro then 3346, the Stirlings, and 24029 are this group.

A possibility which can also be considered is that one of the proposed Roro groups is in fact a descendant group from the once numerous Gregor MacIan group - hereditary keepers of Kilchurn Castle under the Campbells in the 16th century.

As I said, we need more testees with a knowledge of their MacGregor branch connection.
Note for Charts 2 and 3: a rooted chart is connected to a known external set of results, whereas unrooted uses ONLY members of a project group.

Chart 4 - Genetic Distance (click to enlarge)

The final chart (Chart 4), which looks very much like a traditional tree, shows the distance ONLY between individuals on the basis of the number of DNA mutations which separate them. It therefore shouldn't be read exactly as a 'family tree'.

What it shows is how near individuals are to each other in genetic time. Note that it suggests a closeness between 4151, 20630, and 5276 which is not correct. Otherwise it is fine except 2125 and 22185 are not quite as genetically close as it suggests. Compare the groupings with Charts 2 and 3 and there are similarities.

Where are we now? Update #4

2004-06-01T17:23:00.008+01:00

This is the fourth update on the MacGregor DNA project. The number of participants in the project has now exceeded 100 – it currently stands at 104, although the number of active participants is in fact 89.

There has been a steady trickle of new members since the last update in September 2003 and at the time of writing this there are still a good number of test results outstanding.

Table 1 - Marker Comparison (click to enlarge)

In order to understand this update, it is really necessary to follow through the previous ones as I have only labelled the newest test results on the phylogenetic trees of this update. I have adopted this approach simply for clarity, and to enable newer participants to determine how connected they are to the various branches. Rather than present the whole graphic, I have chosen this time to concentrate on the central group – virtually all of whom are from the Haplogroup R1b (once called Celtic, now properly referred to as Palaeolithic).

Chart 1 - Simplified Haplogroup R1b (click to enlarge)

Chart 1 shows a simplified version (compared with charts in previous updates) of all the tests completed to date. To avoid cluttering up the chart, I have only labelled those new results previously unplaced. It will be obvious however that the group of results around the MacGregor bloodline (the large yellow circle) is too dense to make out the detail.

Chart 2 - Main MacGregor Bloodline (click to enlarge)

Chart 2 therefore, concentrates only on the MacGregor bloodline – which corresponds, more or less, to Haplogroup R1b found across Europe (Spain, France, North Italy, Germany and the Low Countries). Basically this is the result of expansion from an ancestral Y chromosome which developed during the last Ice Age in Iberia. Note that the Viking line on this chart goes off towards the top of the page rather than towards the bottom as in Chart 1, but otherwise is unaltered.

Chart 3 -MacGregor Bloodline: Wide Range (click to enlarge)

Chart 3 is a magnified version of Chart 2, focusing on those results which make up the MacGregor bloodline (elliptical shape labelled ‘Main’) and those tests results which might be directly connected but have more mutations than would be expected (Wider Group). New test results are given on this chart to enable participants to see where they lie. As in Chart 1, the main MacGregor bloodline is the largest yellow circle. Individual members of the project should contact me for clarification if required.

Chart 3 -MacGregor Bloodline: Narrow Range (click to enlarge)

Chart 4 narrows the results down even further to concentrate only on the MacGregor bloodline and those most closely related. [All charts are derived from phylogenetic software from: http://www.fluxus-engineering.com/]

Chart 5 - Genetic Distance Relationships 1 (click to enlarge)

Chart 6 - Genetic Distance Relationships 2 (click to enlarge)

Charts 5 and 6 are two new charts which look very much like a traditional family tree. It is important NOT to read these as ‘family trees’ which show ‘family’ connections. I have included two because careful examination will show that there are different ways of interpreting the genetic relationships. However, the Viking and ‘recent Irish’ groups are still clearly grouped together. They are marked off by two parallel lines //. I have marked off the MacGregor bloodline group in the same way.

I am reasonably confident that these three particular groups show common descent from
1) Gregor the name father of the clan (or his immediate forebears) for the MacGregor bloodline;
2) a common Irish ancestor within historic time for the Irish group; and
3) a common’ pre-Viking’ ancestor for the Viking group.

All the individuals named Orr are related, but not to any of the last three groups, and various Grier and McAdam families are definitely related to each other but again not to any of the three lines above. There is evidence for separate origins for McAdam(s), one Irish and one probably not, and similarly for Grier (Greer), one Irish, one probably not. No other relationships are identifiable. On Charts 5 and 6 the kit number and surname is given.

Remember these trees indicate genetic distance and we can be talking about thousands of years (that is, relating to colonisation following the last Ice Age).

The tree software uses ‘Phylip’ from http://evolution.genetics.washington.edu/phylip.html to generate the necessary grids, and the Tree Drawing software is from http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/rod/treeview.html.

Richard McGregor
Chairman Clan Gregor Society
DNA Project Coordinator

Where are we now? Update #3

2003-09-21T17:11:00.004+01:00

This is the third update on the MacGregor DNA project. As you will see from the diagrams which follow this update the picture is becoming very complicated and will mean that I will have to reconsider the way this is presented for future updates.

The project now has 80 participants, but as yet only 62 returned kits (with some in the post). There is a ‘wastage’ of about 10% of those who request kits but decide not to carry on.

The new spreadsheet [correct to Sep 20th 2003] has been laid out differently this time – I have attempted to group together haplotypes which seem to have features in common. In deciding which to put with which I have been guided by the following principles:

where 385a and 385b are 11 and 13 respectively I have grouped these together since this MAY indicate more recent Irish origin (my interpretation)
similarly 392 with score 14 may indicate the same
I have grouped results with 391 = 10 as these seem to lie together (and here 385a and 385b have 11 and 14 respectively EXCEPT for the MacGregor bloodline – and interestingly, GRUER - which has 10, 14 on this loci)
I have similarly grouped those with 391 = 11 together unless there were reasons for doing otherwise
I have linked the remaining tests together in various ways which will be obvious, but note 2314 Nevins to 10063 McGregor would fall within the ‘Viking’ group (old HG2, possibly Norwegian)

Table 1 - Marker Comparison (click to enlarge)

The diagrams have been split for the first time. The less detailed one [Chart 1] is the overall picture, while the exploded section [Chart 2] focuses on the ‘Celtic’ haplogroup (the old HG1 – which incidentally for those of you who have been delving a little deeper is NOT only the ‘renamed’ group R1b though many of the participants are probably in that subgroup).

Chart 1 - Phylogenetic Tree (click to enlarge)

Chart 2 - Celtic Haplogroup (click to enlarge)

As indicated earlier, the more people who take part in this programme the more we will understand about our origins. I encourage you to contact me either through our Secretary or on Richard McGregor. Why not take part in the adventure? As I wrote to one enquirer on the webpage ‘kinsmen are united by blood or by community, by descent or by association, but DNA is about exploring our deeper past’.

Please remember that only males can take this test although it is quite usual for this to be organised by a member of the female line on behalf of brothers or cousins. The tested individual should bear the MacGregor name or a supposed alias. Mitochondrial DNA testing is available to both genders but does not link with paternal DNA inheritance at all.

Richard McGregor
Chairman Clan Gregor Society
DNA Project Coordinator

Updated Marker Chart and Phylogenetic Tree Results

2003-04-03T17:03:00.005+01:00

This update includes a number of MacGregor sept names and aliases. It will be noticed that the charts, which represent two different ways of interpreting the data, are becoming increasingly complex. I have therefore, for the moment, omitted results for Dowie, Gruer, and Nevins, the first 2 lying within the former HG1 group and the third being the former HG2. I have, however, made some charts also using these names and will supply them to anyone who wishes to see them by return e-mail to: Richard McGregor. If I can work out a more concise way of presenting the charts I will include these names in the future on the online charts.

Please note that the terms HG1 (haplogroup 1) and HG2 (haplogroup 2) have been superceded by a more refined nomenclature. I have retained the original labelling since most of the earlier articles on DNA use this terminology. Please also note that Stirling may not belong to HG2.

Chart 1 - Phylogenetic Tree (click to enlarge)

Table A - Marker Comparison (click to enlarge)